Performance whingeing

[fochinell]

OK, I wanted to give us (and more importantly, me) a place to whinge about aircraft performance outside the 'wish list' threads, so the developers don't get sumberged in inane gibbering about performance minutae while looking for more useful comments and suggestions.

Now some of this stuff may be required for fudging to achieve game balance, and if so, fair enough. But if the figures actually are relevant to RL performance....

1. MVR of the 109K-4 at 40? OK, it should be an outstanding performer for speed and climb, but surely the G-6 and 10 should be more maneuverable? Their MVR seems reasonable to me, but the K is too high.

2. On the same subject, I have a 4,900ft rate of climb for the K-4. Compare that to the Spit XIV on 3,000 ft per minute. Does not compute. In fact, the Spit RoC's all seem to be a little off - the Hurri IIC outclimbing the Spit Vb at 2,700 ft/min vs 2,666 ft/min? The Mustang outclimbing the Spit IX? The Spit should suffer for durability and range, but it - and specifically the IX and XIV - were relatively much better than that on the climb; IIRC the XIV should out-climb every other allied fighter until the F8F comes along (go on, HS, give us Bearcats....).

[Hard Sarge]

Give me a break 

the numbers in BTR are not the numbers in EDtBTR

you should know I alway was of the camp of the K being too MRV (it was a lead slead, fast but once up to speed, that is all it could do, go fast)(which is not to say it is shabby, just not as good as the late Spits)

in fact, the Spits have the highest MRV of all planes in the game (if I could waggle a way to get the Yak 3 into the game, we may have some arguements)(but that would have a Alt limit on it, so still not the same)

(top MRV plane for the GE is the TA 152 both of them)

plus I have most late war Spits with a 4600 climb Rate

(top climber is the Me 163, now talk about a lead slead !!!!)(about the same for the K and the late Spits)

Besides, if most of the Spit Data didn't come from you, you are the cause of me digging deeper into the stats to make them work

(now, while I am a fan of the Bearcat, if I was going to add any planes, just to say I could add planes, I would have to go with a F4U4 and or the A-1 (talk about a terror for a Panzer Div on the move !!!!)


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[Hard Sarge]

LOL

too many finger waggers, that hurts my eyes

[:-]

[Javakamp]

Would it be possiable to post the latest plane list? I know I saw one at one time, but I can't find it.

[Hard Sarge]

oh, you just want to see me get yelled at

here is a list, but it don't have any of the stats, be too many screen shots to try and get a complete listing of stats, and just in case, list may not be complete and or some may not end up making it as is, or and

6   Bf 109G-2          
7   Bf 109G-5          
8   Bf 109G-6          
9   Bf 109G-6/R6       
11  Bf 109G-10         
12  Bf 109G-10/R6      
13  Bf 109G-14         
14  Bf 109G-14/R6      
15  Bf 109H-2          
16  Bf 109K-4          
17  Bf 109K-6          
18  Bf 109T-2          
30  Do 335A-0          
31  Do 335A            
32  Do 335B            
33  Do 335A-6          
36  FW 190A-5          
38  FW 190A-6          
39  FW 190A-6/R1       
40  FW 190A-8          
41  FW 190A-8/R1       
42  FW 190A-8/R7       
43  FW 190A-8/R8       
46  FW 190D-9          
52  G.55/I Centauro    
53  G.56               
62  Ju 88C-6a          
64  MC.200 Saetta      
65  MC.202 Folgore     
66  MC.205 Veltro      
71  Dar-11 Ljastuvka   
72  Avia B.534         
73  G.50bis Freccia    
74  D.520              
75  He 112B-2          
76  IAR 81M            
77  MS 406             
78  Bf 109Ga-2         
79  Bf 109Ga-6         
81  FW 190F            
84  FW 190G            
89  Re.2001 Falco II   
90  Re.2002 Ariete     
91  Re.2005 Archer     
94  RO 57bis           
96  SAI.207            
109 Ta 152C            
110 Ta 152H            
121 Bf 110G-2          
122 Bf 110G-2/R3       
123 Me 210C            
124 Me 410A-1          
125 Me 410A-1/U2       
126 Me 410B-2/R3       
127 Me 410B-2/R5       
128 Me 410B-2/U2       
129 Me 410B-2/U4       
131 Bf 109G-6/U4N      
133 FW 190A-5/U2       
145 Bf 110G-4          
146 Bf 110G-4/M1       
148 Bf 110G-4/R7       
149 Bf 110G-4/R8       
152 CV F.5             
153 Do 217J-2          
154 Do 217N-2          
158 He 219A-0/R2       
159 He 219A-2/R1       
160 He 219A-5/R4       
164 Ju 88C-6           
166 Ju 88G             
168 Ju 388             
169 Me 262B            
170 Re.2001CN          
173 Ta 154             
176 He 162A            
177 Me 163B            
178 Me 262A            
179 Me 262A-1a/U4      
202 Beaufighter VIF    
203 Mosquito N.F.II    
204 Mosquito N.F.XII   
205 Mosquito N.F.XIII  
206 Mosquito N.F.XIX   
207 Mosquito N.F.30    
209 P-61A Black Widow  
215 Wellington III     
216 Wellington X       
219 Stirling I         
220 Stirling III       
223 Halifax II         
224 Halifax III        
227 Lancaster I        
228 Lancaster III      
230 Mosquito F.B.VI    
231 Mosquito B.IV      
232 Mosquito B.XVI     
235 Spitfire PR.IV     
236 Spitfire PR.XI     
237 Spitfire FR.XIVE   
238 Spitfire PR.XIX    
240 Mosquito PR.XVI    
242 F-5A Lightning     
243 F-5C Lightning     
246 F-6A Mustang       
247 F-6D Mustang       
262 Baltimore V        
264 Boston III         
265 Boston IIIA        
266 A-20G Havoc        
269 Mitchell II        
270 Mitchell III       
273 B-25D Mitchell     
274 B-25J Mitchell     
276 B-26B Marauder     
277 B-26G Marauder     
278 Marauder III       
279 A-26B Invader      
282 B-17F Fortress     
283 B-17G Fortress     
286 B-24D Liberator    
287 B-24J Liberator    
291 P-39Q Airacobra    
293 Kittyhawk III      
294 Kittyhawk IV       
295 P-40F Warhawk      
296 P-40L Warhawk      
304 P-38H Lightning    
306 P-38J Lightning    
308 P-38L Lightning    
312 P-47D-6 Thunderbolt
314 P-47D-15 Thunderbolt
315 P-47D-20 Thunderbolt
316 P-47D-25 Thunderbolt
317 P-47M Thunderbolt  
318 XP-72 UltraBolt    
320 P-51B Mustang      
321 P-51D Mustang      
325 Spitfire LF.VB     
326 Spitfire LF.VC     
327 Spitfire HF.VII    
328 Spitfire LF.VIII   
329 Spitfire F.IX      
330 Spitfire LF.IXC    
331 Spitfire HF.IX     
332 Spitfire LF.IXE    
333 Spitfire LF.XII    
334 Spitfire F.XIV     
335 Spitfire F.XIVE    
337 Tempest V          
339 Mustang I          
340 Mustang IA         
341 Mustang III        
342 Mustang IV         
344 Yak 9DD            
346 Wellington RCM     
347 Stirling RCM       
348 Halifax RCM        
349 Mosquito RCM       
350 Fortress RCM       
351 Liberator RCM      
353 Hurricane IV       
354 Whirlwind IA       
355 Typhoon IB         
356 A-36A Apache       
358 Meteor I           
359 Meteor III         
362 MC.202 Folgore     
363 MC.205 Veltro      
364 P-39Q Airacobra    
365 Re.2002 Ariete     

[Hard Sarge]

oh, and just in case, if you see something with a A-0, that means it is a preproduction model

which allows me to bring in some plane types when the test unit came in, but still keep the production model tied down to the real/with in reason real start date

oh, and just in case, some of the GE models, are really, just the R pak that the model can become, so saying, a Bf 109G-6 can become the Bf 109G-6/R6 (and back)

[fochinell]

Give me a break

the numbers in BTR are not the numbers in EDtBTR

Just give me a P-47N to play with and I'll leave you alone...

[snip agreed stuff]

(top climber is the Me 163, now talk about a lead slead !!!!)(about the same for the K and the late Spits)

Spits as lead sleds? Hey, don't make me come over there

(now, while I am a fan of the Bearcat, if I was going to add any planes, just to say I could add planes, I would have to go with a F4U4 and or the A-1 (talk about a terror for a Panzer Div on the move !!!!)

Now that would be kewl

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: fochinell

Give me a break

the numbers in BTR are not the numbers in EDtBTR

Just give me a P-47N to play with and I'll leave you alone...

Gotten some back and forths on if we should add the N, timing is right, place and need is wrong, but

[snip agreed stuff]

(top climber is the Me 163, now talk about a lead slead !!!!)(about the same for the K and the late Spits)

Spits as lead sleds? Hey, don't make me come over there

you misread my statement (easy to do) I meant the K and late Spits are about the same for Climb Rate


(now, while I am a fan of the Bearcat, if I was going to add any planes, just to say I could add planes, I would have to go with a F4U4 and or the A-1 (talk about a terror for a Panzer Div on the move !!!!)

Now that would be kewl

[Javakamp]

Thaks for the list Sarge.

[harley]

ORIGINAL: fochinell

1. MVR of the 109K-4 at 40? OK, it should be an outstanding performer for speed and climb, but surely the G-6 and 10 should be more maneuverable? Their MVR seems reasonable to me, but the K is too high.

Just remember that the Maneuver rating is derived from a combination of roll rate, turn rate, acceleration, dive performance, stall envelope, visibility, pilot controllability... it's essentially a mashup that should be more represented by something like "fighting ability" or "dogfight performance"...

[RyanCrierie]

XP-72 UltraBolt !!!

Thankyew so much [&o]

Hey Hard Sarge, what about the ULTIMATE P-51, or the Ta-152xx Series?

Linka

The ultimate version of the Mustang was the P-51H, which was the fastest Mustang variant to see service and one of the fastest (if not the fastest) piston-engined fighters to enter production during the Second World War. However, it was destined never to see any combat, having entered service too late to participate in the final action against Japan.

...

Pilots generally found the P-51H to be even more delightful to fly than the D model. However, some pilots were distrustful of the H's lighter structure, preferring the greater sturdiness of the D. Consequently, it was not considered as being suitable for combat operations in Korea.

Specs of the P-51H-5-NA:

One Packard Merlin V-1650-9 twelve-cylinder Vee liquid cooled engine rated at 1380 hp for takeoff and a a war emergency power of 2218 hp at 10,200 feet and 1900 hp at 20,000 feet with water injection. Performance: Maximum speed was 444 mph at 5000 feet, 463 mph at 15,000 feet, and 487 mph at 25,000 feet. Range in clean condition was 755 miles at 359 mph at 10,000 feet, 1975 miles at 239 mph at 10,000 feet. Range with two 62.5 Imp. gall. drop tanks was 1150 miles at 339 mph at 10,000 feet and 1530 miles at 243 mph at 10,000 feet. An altitude of 5000 feet could be reached in 1.5 minutes, 15,000 feet in 5 minutes. Service ceiling was 41,600 feet. Weights: 6585 pounds empty, 9500 pounds normal loaded, and 11,500 pounds maximum. Dimensions: Wing span was 37 feet 0 inches, length was 33 feet 4 inches, height was 8 feet 10 inches, and wing area was 235 square feet.

--------

Or the YB-xx "Gunship" versions of the B-17 and B-24?

I know I know i know, lol, but we can dream [:D]

[fochinell]

Just remember that the Maneuver rating is derived from a combination of roll rate, turn rate, acceleration, dive performance, stall envelope, visibility, pilot controllability... it's essentially a mashup that should be more represented by something like "fighting ability" or "dogfight performance"...

Understood, but I agree with HS on this one; the K might be equivalent to the G if the better climb and acceleration are taken into account alongside the K's higher intertia and unpleasant handling, but I don't think it should be better unless the MVR needs to cover the RoC, where the K should outdoubtedly be better. But you're the guys to call that one.

[menik]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge



53 G.56

g56 never saw any action: I suppose it is available only in the "wath if"

and what about Cr 42?

Cr

[Hard Sarge]

the G56 is more a relic from the old boards and what was wanted if we could get something added, it is in the game, but not planned on being used, but, it can be built if the player, AI wants to use up factory space for it

the Cr 42 was pretty much used up by this date, plus the IT/CO-Axis have enough planes that the player/AI is going to be doing nothing but trying to replace already

the YBs would be fun to add, but they do not work right in the game, you would need to have a full Squadron/Bomb Group to use them

[Alfred]

Hard Sarge,
 
Nice to see the extensive list of Italian planes.  Planes such as the SAI.207 (inter alia) are rarely seen.
 
I assume the list is the aggregated list of planes available for both time periods (BOB and BTR).  If not why is there duplication eg
 
Re.2002 Ariete appears as #90 and #365
MC.202 Folgore appears as #65 and #362
MC.205 Veltro appears as #66 and #363
P-39Q Airacobra appears as #291 and #364
 
Alfred

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Hard Sarge,

Nice to see the extensive list of Italian planes. Planes such as the SAI.207 (inter alia) are rarely seen.

I assume the list is the aggregated list of planes available for both time periods (BOB and BTR). If not why is there duplication eg

Re.2002 Ariete appears as #90 and #365
MC.202 Folgore appears as #65 and #362
MC.205 Veltro appears as #66 and #363
P-39Q Airacobra appears as #291 and #364

Alfred

well, long story short type stuff

there are two listing as there are some plane models that are Axis and Allied

the P-39 is a Allied Fighter when it is in the game for the US, when the Balkan AirForce comes in, it will be a Fighterbomber, so that is why it has two models (it is planned that most of them will come from the Allied Stockpile of planes, but I may make it a little different model number, so it is not so confusing if you don't know what I have planned)

and no, this is the BTR Plane list, BoB has its own list as does BoB41 (BTR and BTR44 have the same list)

[Alfred]

Hard Sarge,
 
Nice detail to include the Italian Co-Belligerent.  That explains the duplicate planes.  Is there any room to give them an Italian native bomber or will they be equipped with Marylands?
 
Alfred 

[Hard Sarge]

I wanted to give them the SM 79, but they used the IT bombers as transports, the combat bombers were the Marylands, so had to give that to them instead

[Peter Fisla]

I'm a big Bf-109 fan .... would it be possible to add two following planes please ?
 
Bf-109 G6/AS
Bf-109 G-14/AS
 
Thanks!
 

[Denniss]

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm a big Bf-109 fan .... would it be possible to add two following planes please ?

Bf-109 G6/AS
Bf-109 G-14/AS

Thanks!

The G-6/AS is probably modeled via the G-5 (to be a G-5/AS although not named as such), at least that's the setup in JC's OOB for the "old" BTR. With the G-10 on hand you won't need the G-14/AS.