Stats

[elmerlee]

I really like all the stats Max records, but there are not near enough statistics tracked by the game.

It has the basics and that is it.

Could there be more stats listed in future versions of the game?

[Marauders]

David did add a few requested stats to 2.0, and perhaps more could be listed in the future.
 
It really depends on priorities, and I hope you would agree that making sure all of the stats are being recorded correctly is more important at this time.
 

[elmerlee]

Yes they should be recorded properly.

But this has been a noted problem for at least two years.

What new stats have been added in 2.0? I don't recall seeing any.

[Tullius]

But this has been a noted problem for at least two years.

But the dimensions of the problem is much smaller now. I think the QB-Rating has been added but i do not know if it was already included in MF 1.3 . The stats are sortable and many other improvements are made.

[elmerlee]

Ok - if the dimensions of the ptoblem are MUCH less (over two years I would hope) then it must be time to include mose stats. Passer rating is not a big deal - all that uses are stats already there (multiply,add,subtract,etc).

How about fumbles,fumble recoveries,stuffs,passes defensed,fair catches,and many others. What max now has were in games 10-20 years ago. Even Madden has what I mention. And yes, I know what Max has that Madden does not.

By the way; in a thread that was locked by the developer he references a post I made praising MF to counter my recent complaint. True, but that was more than one and a half years ago. At that time the game was progressing but I fail to see that progress going on now. No, I don't consider 2.0 and its graphics bump as an important gain.

[Marauders]

elmerlee:... if the dimensions of the problem are much less (over two years I would hope) then it must be time to include mose stats.

I agree that the game should list more stats. Football fans are used to seeing stats, and it would be nice to have as many stats as one can get within reason.

Your comments about the time it takes to do things leaves out that time is relative. If David takes two months to do something, that is about one month in man time (2 x.5) because he is working on the game part time (often more but it is a good rule of thumb). If Tiburon has two full time programmers working on the same thing for Madden, it takes two weeks (1/4 of the time). Note that Tiburon also has another two programmers working on artwork, and another two working on player ratings, another two .... EA Sports/Tiburon has full time paid beta testing teams as well.

The single largest improvement in Maximum Football 2.0 was the new depth charts. Add that to the recoding that had to be done for Vista, and that was a lot of work. The opportunity cost of doing these two items meant that other items could not be done; it is simple economics of resources. The community, to which David relies of for feedback, has asked for depth chart changes as a priority item. That doesn't mean that other items are off the table; it just means David cannot do five things at once.

As stated above, I too would like more statistics presented in the game. In fact, I have asked David about that in the beta forum as something that would be a benefit to the game in the future, but I understand that all things cannot be done at once. That is how it works with a small developer. It doesn't hurt to post wishlist items, and I encourage community members to do so, but Wintervalley Software doesn't have a workshop at the North Pole, even if the name almost implies as much, to grant every wish on the list with every new build.

Passer rating is not a big deal - all that uses are stats already there (multiply,add,subtract,etc).

The QB Passer Rating was the single most asked for stats addition by community members. Please don't belittle additions to the game that others have requested.

How about fumbles,fumble recoveries,stuffs,passes defensed,fair catches,and many others.

That would be nice. I am sure David is willing to take a look at what he can do for future releases.

Even Madden has what I mention. And yes, I know what Max has that Madden does not.

Madden can do a heck of a lot of things. It is a good game for what it does, but as you have stated, there are many things it does not do. If I could purchase a game with Madden graphics, Maximum-Football flexibility, and FOF commissioner and stats abilities, I'd jump on it now. As it stands, there are three distinct products that do different things. We can try to be constructive and ask for other features, but we have to be realistic about the changes that each product will have. Believe me when I tell you that I ask for whatever I believe can improve the game as much as anyone, but I understand there are limits.

At that time the game was progressing but I fail to see that progress going on now. No, I don't consider 2.0 and its graphics bump as an important gain.

It is progressing, and it will in the future. The question is if you are willing to be part of the progress or not. I believe you have legitimate concerns about issues that should be addressed, but it is difficult for community members to see those issues through posts that are negative in tone.

In my personal opinion, I am gald that you are willing to post your issues and wishes on this board. I believe feedback and constructive criticism to be of high value. I do have to say that I am concerned with the affectiveness of your posts because of your tone and the sarcasm often associated with them. That is counterproductive, and it actually hinders the issues you champion.

In a nutshell, while agree with you about the desirability of having more statistics recorded and displayed, I disagree with the way you are going about asking for them.

- Marauders

[elmerlee]

Marauders - thanks for your intelligent response. Of course I am going about making comments in an abrasive manner and I do it for a reason. You can figure it out.

One thing that really bothers me is the excuse that the game is made buy a single person and therefore it takes longer to do things. Of course it does. If MF is going to be sold on the basis of doing things that other games cannot do then provide the product in a finished state. If time is not available for this then furnish a product at the outset with lesser aspirations.

As noted in some of my earlier posts I am very willing to contribute to the forum with ideas, utilities, and whatever. But I
don't intend to waste time making,plays,uniforms,utilities or whatever when in years of being marketed
this game is in the state it is.

So I'll forget about MF for another three months and possibly came back then and see what has happened.

[David Winter]

Maximum-Football has had roughly 6000 man hours spread over 7 calendar years of development. Madden has had hundreds of thousands (literally) of man hours spread over what 18 or 19 calendar years? I think comparing the two on any level is somewhat silly. There's simply no comparison.

If time is not available for this then furnish a product at the outset with lesser aspirations.

Indeed. This was my original approach. Basic game play with rules options and team creation. No career, no stats recorded, no league play, and a simplified Play Development System (although still pretty close to what's there now). 

Since then however, in an effort to try and get as many wish list items in the game as possible, the scope and complexity of the project has grown. And grown. And grown. My hope was that the majority of customers purchasing the game would understand that all the features they're now asking for take time. Bug fixes also take time. Maximum-Football 1.0 was released only about a year and a half ago. Version 1.3 released only about 8 or 9 months ago. Those are calendar months. In man months, given the feature set and complexity, that's an extremely short amount of time.

Still, features such as salary cap, player trades, and online game play have been left out of versions to date simply due to the scope of those features. In hindsite I agree, simplier would have been better and that was my origional plan.

That said, I feel the game play, new feature additions, and graphical improvements of 2.0 over 1.3 are massive. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise, but I'm at a loss to understand why you disagree.

[Tullius]

How about fumbles,fumble recoveries,stuffs,passes defensed,fair catches,and many others.

Of course, it would be nice to have much more stats. I could add e.g. solo sacks and assists. But not every stat is of equal importance. All the main stats are included in the game. (BTW Fumble and Fumble recoveries are recorded for RB`s ). But such stats like Passes Defended you will not find in Total Football II or the NFL Record and Fact Book (at least in the last year.) Here in the team sections (2006 edition) you could only find: Passing, Scoring, Rushing, Receiving, Interceptions, Punting, Punt Returns, Kickoff Returns, Field Goals and Sacks. Even Tackles were not inlcuded. The same you can fins some pages later in the Individual Statistics chapter. And i have heavy doubts that stiffs are an official stat.