ASW TFs

[kisslove]

I have a number of japanese subs near Townsville. Recently i've comitted an ASW raid with 8 minesweepers. As a result - damaged one sub and have lost 2 minesweepers. Not so good result i belive. Will sunk minesweepers respawn somehow or not? Cause if they will not i have an option to loose all the cheap crafts that could be used for ASW. I've seen a lot of japanese auxilary ships with '#2' in their name. Are they were respawned as well? And what is the right way to fight japanese subs?

[wdolson]

Yes, MSWs respawn with the same name as the original.  The Japanese ships with #2 in the name are not necessarily respawned.

There has been a lot of talk about how to fight subs.  At the beginning of the war, the Royal Navy DDs are the best at ASW, but they are a rare and valuable commodity since you have to keep them around to send back or suffer political point penalties.

If you are playing a real player, you should keep your MSWs around for minesweeping because a lot of players like to mine enemy harbors with subs.  The AI doesn't do any offensive mining, so your MSWs are free to hunt subs.  They aren't great sub hunters though.  They arrive with low experience and they have low ASW values.  Sub hunter groups with a few destroyers and MSWs are usually more successful than just MSWs.

People have done a lot of experimentation with sub hunting.  Some people swear that aircraft on ship search at low altitude (1000 feet) is the way to go.  Aircraft on ASW only fly half their normal range, but do tend to carry more potent ASW weaponry.  However, aircraft with low experience often won't attack subs if they find them.

I've found that a combination of aircraft on patrol or ASW combined with an ASW task force will tend to detect subs better than just aircraft or ships alone.

If you are playing PBEM, check with your opponent about what is allowed.  Players tend to have a lot of house rules about ASW.  However, if you are playing the AI, you are free to make large ASW task forces and go hunting.

Bill

[Nomad]

For Allied ASW taskforces, I like to put 2 DDs with 4 other ASW ships ( MSW, DMS, SC, PC, PG ). The better crew experience of the DDs often will keep the sub from attacking and the TF will detect the sub. The non-DD ships get experience increases as time progresses. Using long range aircraft on Naval Search will at least help find the subs. Only when they get 70+ experience will aircraft have success at attacking them. For the Allies, the most important thing to understand is that your ships and aircrews have low experience values and will have to increase that to be effective.

[Feinder]

At the beginning of the war, you're going to end up using MSWs on ASW, simply because you don't have enough DDs.  It does seem to help tho, if you put a high exp ship (like a DD) as the flag, and the other (lower) exp ships are more likely to attack if the flag (highest exp) finds the sub first and attacks.  If the flag attacks, the others are more likely to follow.

To make "efficient" use of what limited ASW assets you have tho, I try to put MSWs (mostly) as convoy escorts.  Their (usually limited) DCs and exp is not steller for actual -hunting-.  But they -will- keep a sub's head down if he attacks the convoy.  They -might- even get a very lucky hit and damage the thing.  They're also useful for when you actually get to your destination, because as said, many players like to leave little turds all over the map (it's a pretty good idea to put 1 or 2 MSWs into every convoy when PBEM as turd-detectors).

You can then create a hunter ASW group of DDs (all with good exp, and lots of DCs : and some are better than others).  Have the hunter group at cruise speed and follow your convoy with patrol no retire.  Don't have the convoy follow the hunters, because it can't keep up.  But with a hunter group following the convoy, you've got about 50% chance of attackign the sub first with your hunters, before it even gets to the convoy.  And if the sub does attack the convoy first, you've got your MSWs to at least keep his head down.  -Then- your hunters will get a reasonable chance of attacking the sub (and killing it, because that's what they do).

And to expound just a little more, it's generally a good idea to have a hunter group following your fleet TFs (so if you've got KB or TF58 out for a joy-ride, form an ASW TF and have them follow, so you can potentially get the jump on subs).

-F-

[Ken Estes]

Its a tough call, as I think fleet DDs never get better than a 4 in ASW, whereas USN DEs and IJN PCs of certain classes start with up to 14 in ASW as I have seen so far. I think that you are best being defensive until the ASW picture changes in 1943; better technology, more dangerous USN SS vs IJN. Then take all your best DEs or PCs [as the case may be] and concentrate them into numbers of 4-ship H/K TFs and set up barriers where the SSs are transiting, hopefully with good repair ports nearby, as there will be terrible carnage on both sides!. The defense part would consist of using less capable  ASW ships, including MSW, PG, old PC, obsolete DDs not fit for surface action, as convoy escorts [another defense is to use massive convoys with good escort, even if it costs time]. Finally, one must allocate a good portion of your aircraft to ASW duty. I have read in these pages that 6000' is best, and it seems to work. For some reason, the USN Mariners are absolute death in all roles - ASW, search - and seldom miss; ninja Patrol a/c. But I have seen all IJN aircraft make hits/kills, except for TR, F and FB.

[Rapunzel]

I am usually stacking the best 25 anti sub ships into one tf and bomb them out of the water. There ist nothing like an asw rating auf 175+ These tf´s are for rear area use only... . If catched by a carrier tf or landbased aircraft the loss is quite heavy.

[Sardaukar]

The number listed as ASW is just combination of weapons ship has for ASW, it does not *necessarily* tell how effective that ship is for ASW (but of course is good guideline).

Other things come to equation long before weapon strength: experience (day/night), speed, naval skill of captain etc. Get those experience numbers higher and you will have chance to bring that weaponry to have effect.

Do not send low-exp ships alone for ASW, chances are they get torpedoed with no subs sunk. Use "training cruises"(recommended also by designers), all combat ships gain exp when they are out of harbour up to limit based on their class. Park your low-exp ships to sea with Patrol/Do not retire for few times to up their exp a bit.

Also, remember to use high/low mix in your ASW TF. Add one experienced DD with CO having good Naval skill to TF with SC, PC,PG, MSW ships and you do lot better. Also, adding TF CO with good Naval skill and good Inspiration may make your ships engage and gain exp better. Often ASW TF does not need TF CO (Admiral/CPT) if DD Captain has high enough Naval skill (since CO of TF is the captain of "biggest ship" by default if one is not appointed over him).

Often highly experienced DD with ASW "strength" 5 will kill more subs than less experienced and slower ship with ASW number 14, due to fact that latter needs to gain more exp to bring the heavy ASW equipment to bear.

Also, check your ship captains. Low Naval skill and high aggressiveness will get you killed, same with subs. Send guys with crappy Naval skill for shore duty.

[VSWG]

Also, keep in mind that the crew experience ratings are modified for ASW combat:

The Manual, p. 105

Prior to 1944, Allied crews perform ASW functions during daylight at 114% of their crew rating,
and at night at 150% of their crew rating (except for British crews which get no bonus at night as
they generally already have extra high night experience). Prior to 1943, Japanese crews perform
their ASW functions at 67% of their crew rating, while in 1943 and thereafter they perform at 80%
of their crew rating.

[Ken Estes]

Ship and commander experience remain very slow to improve. I suspect that the new construction IJN PC class and USN DE class ships are better because of dropping more charges, plus the side thrown and ahead thrown weapons give better lethality, but I doubt the manual makes mention. Certainly the new IJN PCs perform far better than the contemporary Matsu class DDs and late production fleet DDs in killing subs. 

[wwengr]

For ASW combat to occur, does the sub and the ASW TF have to end the phase in the same hex?  If so, what is the best way to operate an ASW task force that isn't following anything.  Do you try to figure out wher the sub is headed and aim for 2 to 3 hexes ahead of the current spotted position?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

For ASW combat to occur, does the sub and the ASW TF have to end the phase in the same hex?  If so, what is the best way to operate an ASW task force that isn't following anything.  Do you try to figure out wher the sub is headed and aim for 2 to 3 hexes ahead of the current spotted position?

Yep - both must end in same hex (same with subs attacking). You can try guessing, or try to intercept at a choke point, or use mulitple TFs to cover multiple hexes.