Bit o' confusion...

[Owl]

I have Harpoon CE and now am seriousy thinking of getting H3 (wish I'd have just gotten both and saved the $ but oh well).

I have been trying to piece together the current status of H3 and am a bit confused. It seems like there are different patches out and different databases. Further from what I can tell it looks like some scenarios work with some databases and/or patches but not others. [&:]

Sooo bottom line for me - if I buy a copy of H3 what do I do to get it to the best currently known state of operation - and if I do will I still have scenarios that are compatable - enough to keep me busy for a long time at least?

Last - somewhat off the confusion topic, how does ESM work in H3 - does it follow the H4 miniature rules now more or less? As a former EW in the navy, the old ESM workings of H3 way back when I last played it (360 version) irked me.

[BurntFingers]

ORIGINAL: Owl

I have Harpoon CE and now am seriousy thinking of getting H3 (wish I'd have just gotten both and saved the $ but oh well).

I have been trying to piece together the current status of H3 and am a bit confused. It seems like there are different patches out and different databases. Further from what I can tell it looks like some scenarios work with some databases and/or patches but not others. [&:]

As far as I know... right now you get by download the 3.8 version. No need to patch, but there's a lot of things wrong with it. A better patch will be made available just as soon as AGSI have finished writing it (first, find the bugs... then fix the bugs).

A given scenario will only work with one particular database. The good news is, you can have several databases each in its own folder with its own scenarios in the same H3 folder - you can easily swap between databases.

HarpoonHQ are boycotting ANW versions (3.7 and later) and sticking with 3.6.3, BUT their databases and scenarios still work (I've tried several, still haven't found one that doesn't work... although sometimes a sensor's range needs increasing).

ORIGINAL: Owl
Sooo bottom line for me - if I buy a copy of H3 what do I do to get it to the best currently known state of operation - and if I do will I still have scenarios that are compatable - enough to keep me busy for a long time at least?

You have to wait until the next patch is out. Scenarios will still be compatible (from the old to the new).

New scenarios, however, written with a given version, won't work on an older version.

Bear in mind... it takes me a couple of weeks to finish playing one medium sized scenario. Given that there are over 200 scenarios in the players DB alone (let alone the monster scenarios that lurk at HHQ) I can safely say there are plenty.

But there are currently bugs. It would be wrong to pretend they aren't there.

ORIGINAL: Owl
Last - somewhat off the confusion topic, how does ESM work in H3 - does it follow the H4 miniature rules now more or less? As a former EW in the navy, the old ESM workings of H3 way back when I last played it (360 version) irked me.

As far as I know... radars have a given output which is listed in the DB entry. A different entry is used for search and tracking radars. It is slightly easier to detect a contac than to track it.

Each ESM system has a both a sensititivity and a maximum range. Outside the maximum range, no test is done. Inside the maximum range, the sensitivity is matched to the outputm with a chance of intercept (assuming the radar is active).

ESM sensors have both angle accuracy ratings (perfect, 1 degree, 2 degree etc) and also a range accuracy (perfect, 1 NM, 2NM etc). If you don't like the database entries then you can change them.

One of the most annoying bugs in 3.8 is that submarine ESM works the same as regular - even at maximum depth. No allowance for radar mast height or water depth.

I hope that answers you question. If you want to have a look, download the USNI demo - that's a bit more bug fixed than current ANW but it's still not perfect.

[Owl]

Thanks BF!
About the ESM - sound workable though I question the range on the receiver.  Technically an ESM receiver could pick up signals from Mars if they're strong enough - depend on the transmitter output.  I'll just have to give it a shot and see I guess!
 
 

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[WhiteOwl]

Just curious BurntFingers, why do you state that the USNI demo is more bug fixed than the release? The USNI demo says "3.8.0.0 RC1" while the release and the download patch from the members section brings you up to "3.8.0.0 RC11". Am I missing something here?

Cheers

[BurntFingers]

USNI is a special collaboration between AGSI and United States Naval Institute. It's got 3D models of (some) platforms and multiple pictures. ANW contains a single picture of each platform (sub, ship, plane).

Now... USNI hasn't been formerly released yet. The demo is just that - a demo. ANW has been released.

This is why USNI has a lower release number. It's not quite the same as ANW.

Thing is... current release of ANW is from an earlier date than USNI. So the USNI demo has some extra bug fixes (for instance, sensors remember their settings) than the current publicly available patch (RC11) of ANW.

When ANW patches are finished and polished, they will be released. Think of the USNI demo as an example, a taster, of what is to follow.

[BurntFingers]

ORIGINAL: Owl

Thanks BF!
About the ESM - sound workable though I question the range on the receiver.  Technically an ESM receiver could pick up signals from Mars if they're strong enough - depend on the transmitter output.

Would also depend on type of radar, lobe shape (not modelled), atmoshperics (partially modelled), solar conditions (not modelled), quality of the receiving circuit (modelled as sensitivity) and of course antenna array type. This latter is a simple model, as 2 dimensional bearing active along up to eight 45 degree axes - port/starbord ahead, port/starboard midships, aft port/starboard midships and stern port/starbord... if you can be bothered with full realism settings.

I can barely tell the blunt end from the pointy end on a ship, but I'm Whee! with a soldering iron. [;)]

And as Dale (VCDH) pointed out, radar horizon is the most important factor.

Thing is... on a really large scale scenario, there's just no point having extra large ranges. It's tying up a lot of processing power for usually zero, maybe 1000ths of a percent chance intercept. It's there as a practical limitation to speed the game up but you can override it if you can be bothered to get down and dirty with the DB editor (I think maximum limit is currently 32767 nautical miles).

[Owl]

ORIGINAL: VCDH

ORIGINAL: Owl
Last - somewhat off the confusion topic, how does ESM work in H3 - does it follow the H4 miniature rules now more or less? As a former EW in the navy, the old ESM workings of H3 way back when I last played it (360 version) irked me.

ESM works using two fields in the database. Radar Output value for the radar involved and the passive input value for the receiving set. The output value is positive and is USUALLY between 500 and 600. This value is always positive

10kW = 500
100kW = 533
1MW = 567
6MW = 597
2W (for LPI Radars) = 377

Passive Input is the sensitivity of the sensor to pick out a target from the clutter. This value is always negative with the lower the value indicating a greater sensitivity against a given output value. The values are inversely exponentional with -2000 giving much greater detection range than say -1900 would. Here are some detection examples:

SPS-49 Radar, peak power 280kW (this from the Guide to World Naval Weapons Systems)

280kW = 548

Sensitivity vs Detection Range

-400 = 30nm
-500 = 94 nm
-600 = 297nm
-700 = 938nm

All this also depends on the radar horizon. Detection range isn't going to mean squat if the aircraft isn't high enough. Here are some examples of the radar horizon vs altitude. You're an Old Crow so you should know this but I'm putting it in for the benefit of everyone.

10m = 7nm
100m = 22nm
1000m = 70nm
10000m = 223nm
20000m (the rough maximum altitude for most tactical aircraft) = 315nm

For the ANW DB, we use a generational model when it comes to ESM. We base detection on maximum range for a given radar output:

1st Gen ESM = Assumed Output of 600, Max Range of 300nm
2nd Gen ESM = Assumed Output of 550, Max Range of 400nm
3rd Gen ESM = Assumed Output of 500, Max Range of 450nm
...and so on as necessary

These values are generic, and data friendly. And in fact I'm thinking of lowering them....when I get the time to look at the consequences.

ESM also has range and bearing errors that you can set. Generally speaking I use1 to 15 degrees for most shipboard ESM sets. 22 degrees for RWRs (sometimes more) and a few have - bearing with some range capability (to simulate some of the higher end stuff).

Later
D

Hmm, OK. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Only issue I'd have would be with some randomness allowing for different "weather" conditions. Radars (and ESM by default) can sometimes work at longer ranges than typical due to an atmospheric phenomina such as what's called ducting. I often could spot a radar "out there" that turned out to be much further away then one would expect. This happened at night far more than during the day, by the way. What I'm getting at is that even though scientifically you can determine an output power for a radar and a sensitivity for an ESM receiver, there are other factors involved other than distance. Radars don't act exactly like visible light when it comes to the horizon. Depending on frequency they "bend" along the horizon to some degree virtually always - and really do it for extensive distances when it comes to ducting conditions.
Anyhow let me just say this - from my experience, turning a radar on - even a low powered one is a dangerous thing. You cannot assume that it's only going to go a short distance or to the horizon. I think if anything the old Harpoon 3 I have played previously and HCE which i just bought go far too easy on the guys that like their radars on!
Maybe I'm biased as a former EW though - I'll admit that's possible, but I have played some "wargames" down in the carribean with live ships and virtual weapons - turn on the wrong radar at the wrong time....not good ('cept for your opponent). [X(]

[Anonymous]

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[WhiteOwl]

ORIGINAL: VCDH

In fact it's one of the major reasons I'm not that much into aircraft in scenarios.  Subs are almost as bad, especially the ones with towed arrays.  A LF towed array is probably the most powerful sensor in the game

Me being a relative newbie, I would like to ask in which way aircraft change the way a scenario plays out, and also, if you can point out a few smaller scenarios without aircraft which would illustrate that difference.

Thanks very much!

[Anonymous]

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[WhiteOwl]

But isn't it more realistic, especially nowadays, to have pretty much full knowledge of your opponents position? I mean if you're talking about brown water navies in brown water, then of course they would also have air assets, information from civvies, etc. and would know where their enempy is. If it's blue water navies in the wide open ocean then you have high end air platforms and satellite information, so they too would know they position of their enemies. I mean, surely the US expected the USSR navy to know where their carrier groups were at all times, didn't they?

[Anonymous]

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