BUg and Suggestions (a start)

[nappy]

First of All congratz to the Matrix staff on what is overall a fine adapatation of the EiA rules. As a cardboard plunker vet I easily managed to feel at home. However there a a few caveats (as come have mentioned)

Bugs:
- A few typos here and there on screens
- It is possible to re-enforce a battle with the corps of an allied state that is not at war with your opponent (and incapable of DPOwing due to enforced peace); and doing so triggers no DoW/War. Under the original rules it was possible (provided the power was permitted - per limits of DoW) to immediately DoW onan enemy if the corps in the SAME area. Yet this still creates a Dow and in the same zone. In my scenario, I had the British attacking the french in the Danish/Hambug zones and constansly being able to re-enforce with Prussian troops (prussia had uncond surrendered to france a year before). Yeah this was major rules abuse but funny.
- The capture of the Napoleon leader does not force a surrender/roll for France. I wonder if the same holds for Alexander. There should be a major repercussion for this.
- some supply chains that should be valid are not (for example placing a depot in London and another in the channel zone (dover) is an error.
- cant seem to place garrisons in conquered minors without a corps present.

AI
- minor AI controlled free states should build up their forces and fleets over time. I attacked sweden in 1808 after 2+ years under active (FS) French control (as GB) and it still had its starting forces.
- more agressive AI in war fighting - It just seems to put forces into big stacks and stay still or fight wars with 1-2 corps runs at capitals.. Ney with 1 Corps Attcks Blucher and 8 Corps in Berlin) MEH!
- Get the AI to Garrison fleet ports, an AI france/Spain always gets its fleets nuked in port.
- balance of Power savoir faire.. Is it really good idea for Austria to go to DOW on Prussia when France is sitting with 150I, 20G and 20C in Munich?
- defend your interiors!! AI powers seem to allow rampaging corps though their country. France (AI) managed to surrender to Spain (AI) when spain took 1 corps and marhed it to Paris. LOL
- Minors are worth getting - AI just isnt very aggressive in getting them or even defending them.
- France AI: Dont be so paranoid about British troops, you dont need * corps watching the channel when RS, AS, SP are at war with you as well.
- Prussia AI: You aint Frederick. Get a Clue (but a bit historical though)
- Spain; You're allied to Engalnd, at war with france. Do you really need to keep 5 corps in cadiz ?
In general my AI beef is the AI really isnt very aggressive. It seems to be content to make half-hearted efforts, but in the end still win wars as the AI powers dont seem to respond to minor attacks. In one game As took constantiople with 1 corps which walked there unmolested while the Tu army stayed foraging in Moldovia (7 corps)
- Russia. This isnt 1812 scenario - Lose Alex as an offensive commander... with 1 corps into Georgia *snicker*

UI - info
- We need more info on the battles that occur on the map. If france and Austria just fought a huge stackfest I want the gory details... not just France wins in Area556.
- details on naval battles please. I cant seem to find them and have to click though fleets to see what was the damage.
- allow (players mod maybe) to name the areas. Area 50 and Area 51 etc are really useless (LOL)
- slower non-player momement (perhaps a click for next move). Right now it feels like an RTS
- Summary SCREENS at end of turns !!!!! Please GOD i hate the scroll box!!
-for DoWs and who controls (minors if any)- a big Pop up even for "France DoWs on Russia!!" I dont want to dig through 300 events to see this
-Surrenders /Royal marriages, influence chnages
- Naval battles
- land Battles /Seiges (one line sumamry - France under napoleon (70I, 10M, 16C, 12G) Beats Austria under Chuck (57I, 26 M, 12C, 7G) at Verona .. (Outflank vs Defend.. ) Losses... etc (or an optional summary pop up at end of each battle)
- New political Combinations
- Economic manipulation screen needs a bit more info

Tweaks:
- Put some sort of Tool tips into the game - especially where the PC version differentiATes from the board version (ie Outflank force detachment)
- a better way of determining fleet stacks.. I have 6 fleets in the channel - I want to stack 3 not all 6.
- the in game manual/leader info pages... yuck.. spice it up!!!
- A movement of 3 for transport fleets seems a bit low, maybe 4 is better. For example

Diplomacy tweaks
- Need some way to bribe/cajole other minors/Great powers to end a war or to join one.

General Questions:
How do light ships factor into battle damage results in mxed formations?
Under what "rules" (ala EiH) is nation compelled to try to sue for peace (no lame duck fight to the end stragetgy) ? Capital occupied?, Fiasco/Inst/ leaderloss) short of civil disorder.

Overall This is a fun game but the biggeSt issue I have is the rather morose bend over and take it AI.

Nappy

[Murat]

Everything under UI I disagree with (for the 3d topic line on the same thing).  Even in FtF the only way you knew what happened in a battle was if one of the participants told you what forces were there and who lost what. It's called Fog of War. This is NOT a beer and pretzels game, it is HARD. It is meant to be HARD. You must make an effort to play it. If you do not feel like scrolling through the events that is your option but it is unfair of you to say 'I didn't take the time to look at what information I was given and now bad things have happened to me because I was lazy.' I have said it twice in the last few minutes: this game punishes the lazy, it always has and it always should. If people are having trouble finding where the information is provided for them, I will be happy to tell them. If they want information provided that is never provided under the rules, I will oppose that forever.

[dauphan129]

- cant seem to place garrisons in conquered minors without a corps present.

I don't have my .pdf of the boardgame rules with me atm so I maybe remembering wrong but:
I do believe this is not a bug. My group played you could just put your Militia/Infantry Reinforcement factors in conq minors garrisons for awhile (few years) then on a re-reading of the rules discovered they had to be detached and could not just show up there on their own. You can use a Depot to get them there if you plan ahead. I will not give anymore hint than that though as it is a tactic [:D]

[nappy]

ORIGINAL: Murat

Everything under UI I disagree with (for the 3d topic line on the same thing).  Even in FtF the only way you knew what happened in a battle was if one of the participants told you what forces were there and who lost what. It's called Fog of War. This is NOT a beer and pretzels game, it is HARD. It is meant to be HARD. You must make an effort to play it. If you do not feel like scrolling through the events that is your option but it is unfair of you to say 'I didn't take the time to look at what information I was given and now bad things have happened to me because I was lazy.' I have said it twice in the last few minutes: this game punishes the lazy, it always has and it always should. If people are having trouble finding where the information is provided for them, I will be happy to tell them. If they want information provided that is never provided under the rules, I will oppose that forever.

Please spare us the carebears vs hardcore eThug sanctimony about how hardcore you feel we should all be. [8|] We are al hear to make thsi game we love better not to prove how iron man "old skool" you can be. This isnt about Fog or War or laziness it is about presentation; this is plainly what is in the rules; battles were open for all to see thus we should be able to see the results of major battles !! If you want fog of war; i'll take another period idea-dispatches- diplomats didnt beed to find who was currently at war with who by looking at page 556-B of dispatch 664f4 in the archives. I just want that in game - somewhere. Secondly I am not asking for handholding; but if we are to be deluged with "France started diplmacy, France ended diplomacy Austria farted.. Turkey yawned..") I better get either filter or some kin dof reasonable summary. Even Nappy didnt go though each corps memo in details to find out from Murat what his army strenght was. This isnt about making the game easier or harder, a hard game is difficult. Tedium and lack of info is not difficulty. I dont see anything in my list that in anyway makes the game easier just more sane in imformation presentation.

1) battles - the info per battle isnt shown now period. We need this. It is in the board game.
2) some sort of slow down in movement - In RL players didnt move like hyper gerbils and you could digest what was moving where without a slideshow.
3) Area names. These regions had real names not Area 530. There is no reason for this.
4) Diplomacy summary - heads of state get dispatches and sumamries. It wouldnt be bad if did not have to wade though 100 debug notes.

Naps

[nappy]

ORIGINAL: dauphan129

- cant seem to place garrisons in conquered minors without a corps present.

I don't have my .pdf of the boardgame rules with me atm so I maybe remembering wrong but:
I do believe this is not a bug. My group played you could just put your Militia/Infantry Reinforcement factors in conq minors garrisons for awhile (few years) then on a re-reading of the rules discovered they had to be detached and could not just show up there on their own. You can use a Depot to get them there if you plan ahead. I will not give anymore hint than that though as it is a tactic [:D]

Yes we did the same thing. I wondered about that.

Naps

[chuckj118]

 I agree with Nappy.  When playing the board game all players got to partake of the battles...Seeing the Turk player pull Escalated Assault against Russia's Cordon and then blowing them away was part of the fun!  Seeing Napoleon roll that 6 + 1 to defeat the Coalition at Stuttgart was also part of the fun...

I would even have gone so far in the design to actually show the dice rolling/bouncine around during battles...there's nothing like thrill of victory or pain of defeat during such times.  [:D]

[Murat]

Actually the rules only require that your OPPONENT see what corps you have and only you and your OPPONENT would know battle results.
 

The corps and fleet counters when face-up on the map only show their general type and movement allowance. Which corps each counter represents is shown on the back of the counter and may be examined by only the owning player, except when its identity must be revealed to other players (e.g., during a combat-see 7.5.2.6.3).

 

7.5.2.6 STEP SIX-REVEAL FORCES/MORALE LEVELS: Both players reveal their forces and determine their final morale levels.

 
Commuications were far from perfect in this period and results were frequently misreported with each claiming to have caused greater casualties than they really did. If you want a report that is inaccurate (some randomized level of inflated losses) and untimely (say a month or after the battle has happened) then fine. Otherwise feel free to try to get the info from the 2 people that fought the battle.
 
Nappy, you called yourself a care bear, not me.

[lavisj]

Murat, So when you play face to face and there is a battle, the two players isolate themselves from the rest of the group in order to resolve it? When we played we always had the battle for all to see. It is a great part of what make the game fun.
 
Now, why not make the interface customizable like it is in Europa Universalis? Where players can decide between different level of showing information depending on what they are interested in?

[Monadman]

I like the way EiANW handles FoW. The actual strength of your opponent is known only by you during battle (and visa versa), yet everyone else can only see, where the battle was fought (I hear you nappy about the area numbers), what chits were picked, the casualties that were taken, and who won (although the method of reporting is still crude). What is missing is an assessment of what the overall army strengths were in battle (it does not need to be spot on either).

If the rest of the players want to know the exact force composition and strengths, let them try to use some diplomacy to coax it out of their ally, who just sacrificed factors (and possibly political points) for that privilege.

Have a little fun trying it a different way.

Richard

[nappy]

I think there may need to be a happy medium reached. After all half the fun here is to see the full sweep of napoleonic warfare noy just one's own little plot. Perhaps if SOME more infomation was made available like Location Name (/poke), number of corps, chits and leaders. After all you couldnt keep this info hidden and it would bring some sanity to trying to keep track of all that is happening. Anything would be better than France Beats Austria in Area056.. film at 11. [:D]
 
Naps
 
 

[Monadman]

ORIGINAL: nappy

I think there may need to be a happy medium reached. After all half the fun here is to see the full sweep of napoleonic warfare noy just one's own little plot. Perhaps if SOME more infomation was made available like Location Name (/poke), number of corps, chits and leaders. After all you couldnt keep this info hidden and it would bring some sanity to trying to keep track of all that is happening. Anything would be better than France Beats Austria in Area056.. film at 11. [:D]

Naps

Well, the program does report location and chits but it could do a better job by reporting leaders and estimated strengths for both sides.

Here is a clip from the Status Panel showing how EiANW currently reports the results of a battle for all players to see (and yes, it should descending not ascending):

1805, Jan Prussia Loses 2 PP(s)
1805, Jan France Gains 2 PP(s)
1805, Jan France Wins Battle Of Magdeburg
1805, Jan Fr Napoleon PPs Bonus +1pp to France
1805, Jan Prussia Breaks, France Wins!
1805, Jan Prussia Pursuit losses: , 3 Guards, 3 Infantry, 2 Cavalry
1805, Jan France Pursuit: Class:2 Die:5 Mod:1 Net:6 Perc Loss:30
1805, Jan Prussia Casualties , 11 Infantry, 1 Cavalry
1805, Jan France Casualties , 2 Infantry
1805, Jan R3: Prussia Die 2, Perc 5, Mrl 0.60
1805, Jan R3: France Die 7, Perc 15, Mrl 2.60
1805, Jan Prussia Casualties , 12 Infantry
1805, Jan France Casualties , 4 Infantry
1805, Jan R2: Prussia Die 3, Perc 10, Mrl 1.30
1805, Jan R2: France Die 4, Perc 15, Mrl 1.60
1805, Jan Prussia Casualties , 9 Infantry
1805, Jan France Casualties , 5 Infantry
1805, Jan R1: Prussia Die 4, Perc 10, Mrl 0.80
1805, Jan R1: France Die 4, Perc 10, Mrl 0.80
1805, Jan Day 1 CHITS France:Assault Prussia:Counter Attack
1805, Jan BATTLE:Magdeburg Attacker:France Defender:Prussia

Richard

[nappy]

Wow I never see this detail for third party battles - only my own; or at least have noticed it.  All I see is usually 1 line in third party battles with the A beats B in C formula which needs a bit more.

Naps 

[Monadman]

ORIGINAL: nappy

Wow I never see this detail for third party battles - only my own; or at least have noticed it.  All I see is usually 1 line in third party battles with the A beats B in C formula which needs a bit more.

Naps 

Your point is valid and should be addressed. What you are requesting is more information about AI v AI battles. Currently, the more detailed information given is for human v human and human v AI battles. More AI improvements pending.

Thanks

Richard

[fvianello]

ORIGINAL: Murat

Everything under UI I disagree with (for the 3d topic line on the same thing).  Even in FtF the only way you knew what happened in a battle was if one of the participants told you what forces were there and who lost what. It's called Fog of War. This is NOT a beer and pretzels game, it is HARD. It is meant to be HARD. You must make an effort to play it. If you do not feel like scrolling through the events that is your option but it is unfair of you to say 'I didn't take the time to look at what information I was given and now bad things have happened to me because I was lazy.' I have said it twice in the last few minutes: this game punishes the lazy, it always has and it always should. If people are having trouble finding where the information is provided for them, I will be happy to tell them. If they want information provided that is never provided under the rules, I will oppose that forever.

Anyway, I agree with Murat.
The spirit of the original game was: no information whatsoever to players not involved in the battle. if you want them, try to gather intelligence from allies, spies or whatever; then scribble on a piece of paper "French II corps, 10i".

[nappy]

If some folks want to play iron man that is fine. But the issue remains is there is currently NO WAY to simulate "scribble on piece of paper" or "request for intelligence" with AIs in the game. Short of adding an entire AI feature - just adding say the toggleable option of open battles should be more workable. ALthough "scribbles" can work with multiplayer as players can send emails.  In my opinion, also isnt about being ultra finicky about the exact intent of the rules (it can be read many ways), but rather how to make the game more engagingand informative, as Monadman agreed.   Every group with which I hav ever played with had the battle info open. I think it was probably the rare group that was that secretive about battles.
 
Naps

[Jestre]

I see no reason why there cannot be an option to suit both sides. Simply have an information filter allowing for differing levels of disclosure. That way everyone can enjoy the game as they see fit.

Customization is a MAJOR factor in wargames, at least to me it is. A lack of customization can make a potentially great game mediocre to bad. Full customization can make a mediocre game good to great... its all about pleasing the consumer, the more you please the more you sell.

Personally I support the Nappy side of the argument, I want to immerse myself in the game in its entirety not just a small slice of it and I see no reason why the programmers could not have made that choice available to those that wish to use it.

[Micke II]

I completly agree with Nappy. The same issue concerning lack of information or improvement of the screens for the existing information has also been adressed in another thread with the same arguments.

See: tm.asp?m=1645850


What I am expecting from this game is
1/ historicity:
when somebody is saying than "only the 2 players must know the results of a battle" it's ridiculous. Spys, diplomats, observers, common people talking to each others, travellers was able between 1805 and 1815 to dispatch with accuracy news concerning big european events such as a big battle. You have just to read some historical books and documents to learn that.
2/playability and fun:
I cannot agree when I read: "to find information you have to dig it out and must make an effort to find it"
It's a game and a hobby, it's not a job. If its appears I have to work hard to play this game I would change immediately for something more friendly.
I have bought this game because I loved the Avallon initial boardgame. I see this computer simulation as an help to play without having to think too much about the mecanic and the rules as it was was the paper edition but to concentrate more on the strategy.
All tools which can help the player to tke the right decisions will be fine.

[La Provence]

ORIGINAL: Micke II
1/ historicity:
when somebody is saying than "only the 2 players must know the results of a battle" it's ridiculous. Spys, diplomats, observers, common people talking to each others, travellers was able between 1805 and 1815 to dispatch with accuracy news concerning big european events such as a big battle. You have just to read some historical books and documents to learn that.

Totally agree !
It's a Grand strategic game so, with a one month turn, every important information can travel easier across Europe !

[Murat]

As I pointed out before the information was very inaccurate. Even today we can only guess at how many troops were in the Grand Army of 1812. Casualties were often inflated for the opponent and downplayed for your side. If you want historical then you should get inaccurate reports and they should come a month or 2 after the battle. As for #2 if you cannot find the information, READ THE MANUAL (most of these questions are arising about things that are spelled out in the manual, not missing things), if you cannot find the information after that, ask here. People go out of their way to teach people this game because it is such a great one. After playing for a while and understanding it I think you will be leaning more to the 'iron' view than to the one you currently hold. If everyone knew everyone else's info then this game would degrade to fancy Diplomacy.

[ravinhood]

but it is unfair of you to say 'I didn't take the time to look at what information I was given and now bad things have happened to me because I was lazy.'

I agree with this 100% if you're going to be a lazy gamer you don't deserve any options or fixes to the fact. I also whole heartedly agree with Murat. Down with Nappy and his ideas plz.