Strategy Input Requested - OSO Stay Out!

[FeurerKrieg]

Hi all, looking for any input on my current game versus OSO.

This is CHS 160, with a fairly lengthy list of house rules.

The current date is 1/21/42 and so far things are going to my initial plan. My overall strategy was to spread fast and wide across the Pacific to keep the US as far away as possible, and then take advantage of that time to hold some portion of India or N. Oz for a time, haul out as much resources as possible and then retreat from those areas.

Singapore has just fallen and all of Luzon is mine except Manilla. I have the Allied PI forces in Manilla and pound them daily with about 10 artillery units and a couple divisions. I'm in no hurry to clear Manilla, I'll bombard until it is out of supply and then capture it. I'll be taking Mindanao over the next couple weeks.

In the DEI I am trying to move fast, but without taking unnecessary risks. Kendari was my biggest gamble so far and after several surface engagements the wonderful (sarcasm) Boise and company took out CA Nachi and CA Haguro, but Nagato and the Baby KB carried the day and Kendari was captured, and Boise, Houston and several CL's were all sent to the bottom.

Koepang was just captured and the rest of Timor will be taken over the next week. Sumatra and Java will be hit simultaneously, although Palembang will be skipped for a bit so I can ensure enemy engineers have been pounded to dust to try and lower Resource/Oil damage upon capture.

In terms of naval assets, the only major ships I've lost are as mentioned above. The allies have lost Maryland and Nevada on Dec 7, and then the CA New Orleans was caught when the KB showed up at Midway. But no CV's have been lost by either side.

In the Pacific, I own Midway, Wake, Johnston, and KB and many troops are enroute to the Line Islands now. In the Solomons I have Lunga and will be attacking PM shortly. The time tables for all areas can be seen in the screenshot below.

[FeurerKrieg]

Okay - so here's what I need some help with. I am not typically one to go crazy and try to take over the map, but momentum is going well so far and I don't want to waste any opportunity to get some extra resources and/or HI for my economy given that this is CHS and the production model is tight.

Shown below is a rough plan I was considering for India. I do not expect that I can capture and hold all of India given that I have most of my air assets in the Pacific. Plus, Aden is off limits due to HR, so India would require a large garrison if I try to take it all.

Here's the plan - 1 Division and a couple Bges will currently move against Moulmein/Rangoon along with a fair amount of air activity there. At the same time, I'll be hitting Java and Sumatra hard, so that hopefully my opponent thinks I am not attacking Burma yet in order to finish DEI fast.

In about 8-12 weeks (March/April) KB will arrive in Singapore. Then 6 divisions plus several Armor and Artillery support units will load up and move north, skipping Burma and attacking somewhere from Chittagong to Vizagapatam, depending on enemy disposition. From there, my units will move to secure all enemy bases from 'Line 1' (shown below) to the mountains of western Burma.

Then, an additional Division (the one that starts weak and has to rebuild, 33rd? - its in Bangkok at the moment) will add to the forces at Moulmein/Rangoon. Plus a couple of the Divisions in the India assault will load up and come back south to help at Rangoon as well. With all the bases farther north captured, several British units should be trapped and forced to surrender. Then, once Burma is secure, a couple divisions will go back to India and bolster defenses there. And a couple will stay in Burma on the coast to prevent a similar move by the British later on.

If I can hold just the Calcutta valley, there is a fair amount of resources and HI there that will help my pools. Plus, an overland assault by the British has that much more land to go through to get to Burma, saving Burmese resources that much longer.

For defense, I'm thinking of falling back before the British counter attack and then evacuating from Chittagong as late as possible, rebasing in Burma and fighting on from there. I won't build the airbases of Line 1 up much, although I will also take bases further west and north if they look empty. My goal is to avoid going so far inland that I have the long coast of India to defend against a British landing, since I doubt KB will be around forever. It will be in the Pacific hoping to take advantage of all those outposts that the Americans will be taking back.

These lines will hopefully allow me to LRCAP bases, while keeping the fighters out of range of escorted bombing runs.



Some of the questions for anyone reading -

Are these lines of defense reasonable?
Given that I plan to fall back, how much do I build these up?
Is 6 divisions enough to take this area of India in April 42?
How quickly will the Brits come back hard? Will I have time to clear out Burma?
What things am I not considering?
What would you do as an Allied player in this situation?

Feel free to bring up any points though, I have never attacked any farther out than Burma so far, and any thoughts are welcome.

[hvymtl13]

The war would have been decided at Johnston Island. I see you hold this but it would have cost one of us very dearly. Probably both of us to the point that it would alter your plans and available forces significantly.
To your question for an Allied perspective I would Attack. Unrelentengly, in the Burma area of operations. As soon as I see a weakness due to reinforcements hdg to Burma Army cenpac will get your attention very quickly. Wake Island would be my primary axis of attack, so consider Midway Island the deciding factor.

Due to the shorter timeline I would attempt to play this scenario PBEM vrs a competant Japanese player opponent.

[saj42]

1st line: hold only with a Construction Bn in each base to act as a 'tripwire' warning system of any overland Brit advance
2nd line: Cuttack - Jamshedpur - Patna
3rd line: D.H. - Asansol - Calcutta - Rangpur

how many troops to garrison NW India with? - well enough that OSO has to commit enough forces to retake, but not so many that he decides to bypass and go straight for Rangoon.
Only build up the airfields at Dacca and Chittagong to lvl 4 or higher. If you build up any airfileds east of these they will only be used by the Brits to attack your evac convoys. The forward bases should only have AF lvl 2 (so you can launch DB attacks) and all bases should be forts 9 (obviously).
I would commit Sonias and Lilys/Sallys in NW India. Bettys in Sabang and Rangoon to deter any invasions, Mavis in Sabang and Port Blair to keep tabs on Royal Navy movements.
To make use of the HI you capture I presume you will ship the oil in Rangoon up to Calcutta to power the industry ( build up the HI Pool ).

6 divs in your initial invasion is enough if OSO has his troops defending forward near the Burma/India border. You should capture Chittagong or D.H. with little problem - Calcutta is the main problem with its urban defense bonus - very bad.
I would bring ALL the Armour units you can find, as many Engr Regts as you can and hit with Paras on the first assualt.

[Andy Mac]

I dont know this scenario but assuming its similar to stock in that Indian Divs start understrength its a dangerous plan.

Strategic objections

1. You are giving the Indian Army and Air force which starts off low in xp a chance to train up against your troops it doestn take a lot of bombardment attacks to get forces up to 50 60 xp. Also RAF aircraft are short range you are making it easy for them to participate and attrit your pilot pools
2. 6 Divs is not enough to hold that area long term and you are therefore probably accelerating an Allied ffensive in this area (inevitably with higher xp forces and probably a few extra units from SWPAC the allies will attack early)
3. Supply line is tenuos - a lot of supply will have to come over the trails unless you think you can kleep a port clear (does this mean you need to keep part of KB in these waters to protect convoys ?)
4. Allies will have good logistics for a 43 attack as opposed to poor logistics over the trails.
5. Construction forces to build forts may be better used elsewhere.

Tactical Issues.

1. By the time you get there Allies will have rebuilt equivalent to 2 Bdes plus at start forces from replacement squads and they be starting to get tanks for the Armoured Bdes.

2. Calcutta will be a bear and if the allied player is smart and moves 2 Divs in there plus SEAC HQ even if you cutr it off 6 Divs are not enough to take the city and that means your biggest port is not useable and the bulk of the industry in the area remains outside of control - so securing Calcutta and preventing the allies forting up there is a must do.

3. India has enough forces to stop a 6 Divisional Attack even in 42 unless evereything goes right you must feint towards Madras to force your opponent to honour the threat and divert forces from the front.

The issue I have with the attack is that I am not sure what a limited offensive in India gets you - you may  destroy a few units but I would not count on it, you will train the RAF and Indian Army and probably make this theatre more live than it would be normally.

I guess my biggest fear would be Calcutta which on its own has the potential to break your attack

Andy

[FeurerKrieg]

Thanks guys - good thoughts here.

hvymtl13 - I fully expect Allied attacks in CentPac. We have stacking limits on atolls, so infantry assets won't be missed in the Pacific since I can't use them anyways. But I agree that as soon as significant naval assets show up near Burma/India, Johnston/Midway/Wake are all likely to be attacked.

Tallyho! - Good suggestion on the different lines. I also agree that the first line is more of a tripwire than anything else, and if possible I'd push that tripwire farther out, especially if any feint (such as Andy mentioned) does better than expected.

Andy - All good points - when I sit down to actually plan it out in detail, I'll see if I can't muster up a couple more divisions to help. I do intend to bring every ARM units I can, including the reserve ARM units from the home islands. As far as what I hope to gain - I'd like to be able to hold the Calcutta valley for about 6 months minimum, long enough to get some HI and any excess resources hauled out, then I'd be pulling out. I am aware of the XP risk for indian troops, and I don't intend to stand and fight in the air. If I have to fight escorted bombing runs, I'll fall back. 4E bombers aren't as numerous as stock, so he does have to manage his losses a little bit in 42.
I'll certainy add the feint and Calcutta importance to the operational planning. I still have decided to do this or not, just trying to get the pros/cons at this point.

[niceguy2005]

This is not unlike the attack Graycompany launched against me in Feb/42 in my game with him.  He already had Burma (due to the fact that I turned tail and just ran) and he invaded at Chandpur (we played stock).  As the game is still going so I don't know if his intention was to conquer India, or just gobble up the resources as you have suggested.  He made great initial progress, but ultimately got bogged down along the Gangees.  I think part of his problem was deciding what to do about the large force he found at Dimapur (The army from Burma, reinforced by 3 Chinese Divsions airlifted in).  He couldn't advance on Calcutta in strength with a large army at his back, so decided to defeat the army at Dimapur, which he did within 2 weeks.  However, by the time he was able to return to attacking Calcutta the Gangess line was solidified.

As to if you have enough strength, maybe, depending on the position of his troops.  If he is already dug in around Calcutta and can maintain a supply line west then, no, 6 Div is not enough.

As to weakness of the plan it's hard to say, so much depends on where his forces are.  Overall I think the plan is solid.  I can tell you from experience that speed is critical in this type of operation...it's everything really.  Once you invade you need to take everything fast.  Once the defensive forts go up you're done for.  Also, don't underestimate the RAF.  FLying cap over their own bases with Air HQs present the Hurris are deadly...Graycompany can attest to that as he never did break the back of the RAF in Calcutta...and not from a lack of trying.  Your invasion site is good (I think).  One thing one has to worry about are the strinbags.  Don't invade within their range without full air cover. 

To me the weakest part of this plan is the long-term viability of the beach head and the fact that it is so far from your objective.  It is essentially outside your LBA range.  YOu need to dump a lot of supplies there fast.  It is vulnerable to the RN, meaning the KB will need to be in the Indian Ocean until your forces secure some of those other bases.  As long as you can afford to keep the KB in the IO I think you'd be ok.   The other question I would have is can you afford to commit several armor units?  As you will need to react fast they would be most valuable in securing bases and as mobile blocking forces.

[FeurerKrieg]

I would expect to keep KB+ CVL/CVE's in the theater for at least 6 months. And for Armor, I'd be bringing almost every ARM unit the IJA has.

If I do this it, it will be as tightly planned as possible so that any place that is getting attacked will be hit as close to the same day as possible. Most LCU's will be loaded on a lot of transports so that even with losses to shipping from air attack, the bulk of the troops will make it through.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only person that has tried something like this at least.

[niceguy2005]

2. Calcutta will be a bear and if the allied player is smart and moves 2 Divs in there plus SEAC HQ even if you cutr it off 6 Divs are not enough to take the city and that means your biggest port is not useable and the bulk of the industry in the area remains outside of control - so securing Calcutta and preventing the allies forting up there is a must do.

3. India has enough forces to stop a 6 Divisional Attack even in 42 unless evereything goes right you must feint towards Madras to force your opponent to honour the threat and divert forces from the front.

The issue I have with the attack is that I am not sure what a limited offensive in India gets you - you may destroy a few units but I would not count on it, you will train the RAF and Indian Army and probably make this theatre more live than it would be normally.

I guess my biggest fear would be Calcutta which on its own has the potential to break your attack

Hi Feurer, I think Andy gave a great analysis there. A little better summed up than mine. I particularly agree with these points. The key to your success is Calcutta and getting it fast.

You asked what the allied player will likely do. What I did was rush everything I could to Calcutta and Asansol. Forts went up amazingly fast. My opponent never did directly attack Calcutta (wisely). He did try to take Asansol, which also held a division plus, with a very determined attack. He never got better than 1:1 odds and couldn't keep the forts from going up. Once they hit fort level 6 it was all over.

I would think about an assault on Diamond Harbor. It would be bloodier but puts you just 1 hex away from Calcutta.

[Milman]

I would never go in India if i don't intend to conquer all country . You will lose a lot of planes in fights with hurricanes and that is every allied player wet dream . I allways like when my oponents send zero's on my hurricans . Your convoys with oil and/or supplies will have a lot of casuties . RAF will be 100% active witch isn't very good .

The worst part of this battle will be that your KB will remain in india till you don't retreat . OSO will have free hands in Pacific with hes carriers . Also KB will lost a lot of those good pilots and you will be very weak in second part of 1942 .

[KDonovan]

ORIGINAL: Milman

I would never go in India if i don't intend to conquer all country . You will lose a lot of planes in fights with hurricanes and that is every allied player wet dream . I allways like when my oponents send zero's on my hurricans . Your convoys with oil and/or supplies will have a lot of casuties . RAF will be 100% active witch isn't very good .

The worst part of this battle will be that your KB will remain in india till you don't retreat . OSO will have free hands in Pacific with hes carriers . Also KB will lost a lot of those good pilots and you will be very weak in second part of 1942 .

I agree with Milman here, unless you are looking take out the entire India Subcontinent, you are wasting valuable divisions there, and risk training up Brit/Indian forces. If you look at Joe and Moses AAR, you will see that Joe is doing quite well in Burma well into 1943, without taking one Indian base other than Akyab.

Since you are playing CHS, i would instead use those Divisions against North-West Oz (and perhaps even Perth). Those North-West Oz Cities are only connected by crappy trails, essentially making them islands. Thereby making an overland attack from the east coast cities tough. Plus holding those cities, prevents an early incursion from NW-Oz into the DEI via Timor.

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: KDonovan
I agree with Milman here, unless you are looking take out the entire India Subcontinent, you are wasting valuable divisions there, and risk training up Brit/Indian forces. If you look at Joe and Moses AAR, you will see that Joe is doing quite well in Burma well into 1943, without taking one Indian base other than Akyab.

Since you are playing CHS, i would instead use those Divisions against North-West Oz (and perhaps even Perth). Those North-West Oz Cities are only connected by crappy trails, essentially making them islands. Thereby making an overland attack from the east coast cities tough. Plus holding those cities, prevents an early incursion from NW-Oz into the DEI via Timor.

Oz is certainly another place I could go. I hadn't considered Perth, just seems like it would be hard to maintain. I'll think about it some more and I'll check out Joe and Moses AAR to see how things went there.

[wwengr]

Perth is a long way away from everything, but it appears that it is the only clear path for a line of communication between USA and India on teh map.

[niceguy2005]

Well, playing devil's advocate a minute here....

I haven't studied the CHS map well.  Thats said, if you take the area around Calcutta and keep those Hurris (and future Spits) more than 2-3 hexes from your bases you will have little to fear from the Allies until the P-38s start showing up - this is assuming that the allied player doesn't counter by reinforcing with figher groups of P-40s.  Hurris and Spits can't project air power and Kitthawks (if you have any Oz units there) aren't much to fear unless they are in mass.  Unescorted bombers could be easy targets.  So the RAF is manageable IF you take Calcutta and the surrounding bases quickly.

Getting into a land war long term with the UK army is not going to go well for Japan.  However, mid-term it is certainly manageable.  Your going to fight them, so whether you start the fight in Burma or if you start it in North India it really doesn't matter.  The question is, will you be able to discern when is the right time to withdraw back to Burma.  A surprise assault at the wrong time could leave a lot of your troops isolated.  In terms of strategic value taking this area serves one other purpose which is to COMPLETELY isolate china, even from air transport.  I don't know if that is an important objective to you.

I would agree however that if you have to commit the KB to the IO long term you have done the allies a great service.  I don't know your house rules but an alternative is to seek out and destroy the RN in the IO.

As a parting thought, IMHO Northern Oz is a pointless target unless you take Darwin - no resources, no roads and why build up the bases only to hand them over to the allies again in 43, if you don't build them up what good are they?  If Darwin is in allied hands then the best base on that coast is still usalble by the enemy.   Perth could be strategic, in particular if you have PM. 

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Well, playing devil's advocate a minute here....

I haven't studied the CHS map well. Thats said, if you take the area around Calcutta and keep those Hurris (and future Spits) more than 2-3 hexes from your bases you will have little to fear from the Allies until the P-38s start showing up - this is assuming that the allied player doesn't counter by reinforcing with figher groups of P-40s. Hurris and Spits can't project air power and Kitthawks (if you have any Oz units there) aren't much to fear unless they are in mass. Unescorted bombers could be easy targets. So the RAF is manageable IF you take Calcutta and the surrounding bases quickly.

Getting into a land war long term with the UK army is not going to go well for Japan. However, mid-term it is certainly manageable. Your going to fight them, so whether you start the fight in Burma or if you start it in North India it really doesn't matter. The question is, will you be able to discern when is the right time to withdraw back to Burma. A surprise assault at the wrong time could leave a lot of your troops isolated. In terms of strategic value taking this area serves one other purpose which is to COMPLETELY isolate china, even from air transport. I don't know if that is an important objective to you.

I would agree however that if you have to commit the KB to the IO long term you have done the allies a great service. I don't know your house rules but an alternative is to seek out and destroy the RN in the IO.

As a parting thought, IMHO Northern Oz is a pointless target unless you take Darwin - no resources, no roads and why build up the bases only to hand them over to the allies again in 43, if you don't build them up what good are they? If Darwin is in allied hands then the best base on that coast is still usalble by the enemy. Perth could be strategic, in particular if you have PM.

Dang it - everyone makes good poins on both sides.

To some of Niceguys's points - when considering the fall back lines of defense for northern India, I was trying to take advantage of the short legged British fighters. From line 1 to line 2 is 4 hexes or more apart except for Banares to Patna.

I figure, I should be able to deal with unescorted raids. The P-38's are always a problem, but unless I am mistaken it takes a little time for the pool of P-38's to get large enough to cover both India and any areas in the SoPac.

I could put a lot of Sally and Helen bombers on top of advancing British troops also, which means the RA has to be split between escort at extreme ranges, or LRCAP over their troops. I would guess enough Zeros/Tojos/Tonies could get the bombers through. KB would primaryily be in the area to prevent British carriers from messing with my supply lines through the Bay of Bengal. But if opportunity presented, I'd be happy to go after the RN.

Back to Australia - I'm still hesitant here, because I don't see an economic benefit. I can't see any reason to go for Perth without Darwin. And going for Perth certainly seems like it would be tough. John 3rd and Mandrakes AAR is what I would be afraid of occuring.

What about New Zealand? If that were in Jap hands, would the Aussie's have enough on their own (with possible British help) to launch an offensive into PNG or Timor?

Looks like three options -
1) Northern India as outlined above, with emphasis on taking Calcutta fast. (economic)
2) Darwin, et al. and Perth, to cut off India from Australia and US. (strategic)
3) New Zealand to cut off Australia and India from US. (strategic, some economic)

Who is better to isolate? US or Britian? It seems either way, Australia can get help from one or the other.

Sorry for thinking out loud - and thanks for the comments so far, it certainly helps!!

[Nomad]

How did my name come up in this thread? [&:] I have been reading, but this is my first post in it. [8|]

Anyway, I don't like the limited India invasion. Either take it all or stay out. I favor New Zealand myself. That completly cuts off
USA and USN units and supply getting to Australia. I think it cuts down the possible attack routes quite well. [:)]

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

How did my name come up in this thread? [&:] I have been reading, but this is my first post in it. [8|]

Anyway, I don't like the limited India invasion. Either take it all or stay out. I favor New Zealand myself. That completly cuts off
USA and USN units and supply getting to Australia. I think it cuts down the possible attack routes quite well. [:)]

Sorry - Niceguy/Nomad... its all the same right? [:D]

[Jim D Burns]

The problem I have with this plan is you’ve already committed to expanding in the eastern Pacific. So unless you plan to split KB, you can’t guarantee naval air cover for your supply fleets on both sides of the map.

By going into India you force yourself to expose your fleets to land based and naval based air attacks. Burma can be supplied overland from Bangkok, but India can’t pull enough supplies via land, so it has to be a 100% naval lift, a good portion of which will be within range of allied land based air. CV raids can also wreak havoc if the British fleet sneaks into your rear occasionally.

As an allied opponent I would view this move as an opportunity. You’re going to lose a lot more shipping than you normally would in 42 and 43 and that’s shipping you’ll need in 44 when getting supplies to your perimeter bases becomes seriously problematic.

Also you don’t really gain much by going into India half hearted. You also risk the isolation and destruction of a very large chunk of your land army if you fail to pull out in time. A British landing in Burma could seal the fate of your entire operation if it catches you flatfooted.

The allies can easily match strength with 6 divisions in India by March 42, so to even guarantee you can take your planned defense lines, you should bring twice that number. And if he sends both the 6th and 7th AIF Divisions to India, you’ll actually be outclassed in land strength with just 6 divisions.

Off the top of my head the allies could have the 2 AIF divisions, 2 British divisions, 4 under strength Indian divisions, 1 British armor brigade and the Indian armor units and 7-12 infantry brigades as well. That’s a lot of ground strength for 6-8 Japanese divisions to make progress against. He can also have perhaps 6-9 Chinese divisions added to that if he’s brought them out of China into Burma already.

I think the time for Japan to go for India is in January or February. Even February might be too late. The sooner you go in the less chance he can pull troops in from Burma and China to help the defense. By March he’s in good position to redeploy those troops and he has the air lift to help do it much faster than a march out over the trails would take.

I’d stick with your Pacific plan and not expose those easterly bases to counter-attack by sending the KB half way around the world defending India’s supply fleets. Consolidate and dig in and look for opportunities to score some easy victories.

Australia is also still an option, but if you haven’t been planning for it from the start, it may take too long to get things organized to do well there. After March, the allies should be getting fairly organized and their first big reinforcements from the states will be in Australia by then, effectively doubling their airforce, so things get difficult there as well.

Jim

[Milman]

Hurris and Spits in CHS have range of 4 hexes . If you look map there is allways one or more bases in that range from which allies can attack .

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Milman

Hurris and Spits in CHS have range of 4 hexes . If you look map there is allways one or more bases in that range from which allies can attack .

Well, as I said, I don't know CHS nearly as well. That fact could change the situation dramatically. Don't get in an air war with the RAF [:-]

I for one don't like the NZ option. It is putting a lot of your force way out on a limb and too many ways for the US to flank you. Taking New Caldonia makes sense to me but extending that defensive line all the way to New Zealand would take a lot of resources. I do think it would be fascinating. I have never seen this done in a PBEM, I just don't think it makes sense, in particular in CHS where southpac is full of little islands the US can use.