"Non-production" scenario for AE?

[Feinder]

Is there (or could there be), a non-production scenario for AE?

Basically, everyone gets a reinforcement list and air-craft pools, similar to the Allies of WitP. The strategic locations would be on-map for victory point purproses, but I've always wished there an non-production scenario.

It could be argued that "well, if no production, then why bother with SRA etc." I suppose that's true, and I don't really have an answer to it. But I do wish there was a way to get around (or considerably simplify production).

-F-

[mlees]

"well, if no production, then why bother with SRA etc."

You are taking the SRA for the victory points, instead of the oil centers. And the air bases and ports that allow you to stage attacks towards other areas (Australia, Malaya, Phillipines...).

Your idea has merit, in that it simplifies things by reducing a whole lot of micromanaging required on the Japanese side.

However, how much of the in-game shipping being done by the Japanese players is devoted to getting oil/resources back to HI centers? Without requiring this shipping (no convoys of oil or resources headed back to Japan), only fuel/supply and military (LCU transfer) shipping would be potential targets, somewhat nuetering the (Allied) submarine and strategic bombing campaigns. It also gives Japan a much larger sea-lift reserve available than in real life... without deleting some of the ships from the OOB, of course...

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Is there (or could there be), a non-production scenario for AE?

Basically, everyone gets a reinforcement list and air-craft pools, similar to the Allies of WitP. The strategic locations would be on-map for victory point purproses, but I've always wished there an non-production scenario.

It could be argued that "well, if no production, then why bother with SRA etc." I suppose that's true, and I don't really have an answer to it. But I do wish there was a way to get around (or considerably simplify production).

-F-

Well whether people want to admit it or not, strategically the entire war boils down to production and logistics....the need for resources and the ability to transport those resources.

The Japanese went to war because of oil...the need to transport the oil back to the home island proved to be one of the Achilles heels of the Japanese...the lack of oil dictated Japanese strategy as well as tactics.

I don't see how you can remove this from any strategic level simulation of the war.


Operational Scenarios are a different matter...but a campaign game requires production.

[mdiehl]

Well, you could handle it by making production fixed and simply tracking oil vis a vis ship movement ability, and make conquests more a VP issue than a resource issue.

[okami]

ORIGINAL: mlees

"well, if no production, then why bother with SRA etc."

You are taking the SRA for the victory points, instead of the oil centers. And the air bases and ports that allow you to stage attacks towards other areas (Australia, Malaya, Phillipines...).

Your idea has merit, in that it simplifies things by reducing a whole lot of micromanaging required on the Japanese side.

However, how much of the in-game shipping being done by the Japanese players is devoted to getting oil/resources back to HI centers? Without requiring this shipping (no convoys of oil or resources headed back to Japan), only fuel/supply and military (LCU transfer) shipping would be potential targets, somewhat nuetering the (Allied) submarine and strategic bombing campaigns. It also gives Japan a much larger sea-lift reserve available than in real life... without deleting some of the ships from the OOB, of course...

Here is an idea. What if the Japanese player was awarded VP for bringing resources into Japan? Then you could have a no production game and all those resources would still be important. Also the conversion of oil and resources to fuel and supply could be left the way they are as they are still important to the playing of the game. Base the VP award on the amount of oil and resources shipped. Say 1 VP/1000.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: okami

ORIGINAL: mlees

"well, if no production, then why bother with SRA etc."

You are taking the SRA for the victory points, instead of the oil centers. And the air bases and ports that allow you to stage attacks towards other areas (Australia, Malaya, Phillipines...).

Your idea has merit, in that it simplifies things by reducing a whole lot of micromanaging required on the Japanese side.

However, how much of the in-game shipping being done by the Japanese players is devoted to getting oil/resources back to HI centers? Without requiring this shipping (no convoys of oil or resources headed back to Japan), only fuel/supply and military (LCU transfer) shipping would be potential targets, somewhat nuetering the (Allied) submarine and strategic bombing campaigns. It also gives Japan a much larger sea-lift reserve available than in real life... without deleting some of the ships from the OOB, of course...

Here is an idea. What if the Japanese player was awarded VP for bringing resources into Japan? Then you could have a no production game and all those resources would still be important. Also the conversion of oil and resources to fuel and supply could be left the way they are as they are still important to the playing of the game. Base the VP award on the amount of oil and resources shipped. Say 1 VP/1000.

Then we would award too many VPs for doing so.[;)]

[madgamer2]

ORIGINAL: mlees

"well, if no production, then why bother with SRA etc."

You are taking the SRA for the victory points, instead of the oil centers. And the air bases and ports that allow you to stage attacks towards other areas (Australia, Malaya, Phillipines...).

Your idea has merit, in that it simplifies things by reducing a whole lot of micromanaging required on the Japanese side.

However, how much of the in-game shipping being done by the Japanese players is devoted to getting oil/resources back to HI centers? Without requiring this shipping (no convoys of oil or resources headed back to Japan), only fuel/supply and military (LCU transfer) shipping would be potential targets, somewhat nuetering the (Allied) submarine and strategic bombing campaigns. It also gives Japan a much larger sea-lift reserve available than in real life... without deleting some of the ships from the OOB, of course...

Not being a game designer just a player perhaps a different approach could be tried to get to the same point. The Jasp player uses x number of transports to haul the stuff back to the HI. Assuming you could work out a computer version of the production model given a certain amount of the oil/resources brought to the HI, would it not be possible as the computer handles the combat already to work out a system where the Jap player allocates a certain amount of transports to the task of hauling oil/resources to the HI. The computer could abstract the loss due to subs and the Jap player could even route the convoys but all the movement sub loses and such would be done by the computer.
the supply convoys would be spotted and would still handle surface contact combat but most of the work of picking up and sending the stuff to the HI could be done by the computer and the computer production model would produce based on what it receives.

Well I better stop now before I get WAY OVER my head but perhaps this provided a bit of interesting reading for those who can really do the designing thing.

Madgamer

[Hoplosternum]

VP solutions won't work with the current VP model. The problem is the Japanese can hold a base from the 10th December to the penultimate turn and it doesn't count for victory. Towards the end of the game the allies will be looking for targets that are VP rich. Either in the base VPs, the things they will destroy capturing them or for Strat bombing purposes. It will just change the targets a little and the allies would likely make the recapture of Java and Sumatra (often left as in the real war) in WITP.

Also the Japanese in a current game need the SRA fairly quickly for their economy. They don't need the VPs early. If you make the SRA VP rich the Japanese can spend the first 6-9 months CV and Pearl/Australia/India hunting. Then backfill to take the remains of the SRA.

What you need is to remove the factories etc that can mean the Japanese can change their production while the allies can't but keep the economic need for the Japanese to take the SRA. We already have that. Resources produce supplies. Oil produces fuel and supplies (I think?). So you give some supply & fuel to the Home Islands, reduce the initial stockpiles perhaps but make sure most is going to come from the Resources & Oil in the SRA. Then the Japanese still needs to conquer it. And soon.

While you don't need to ship this back to the home isles the Japanese still needs to ship it around its Empire using up those Transports. You could leave HI in the game meaning transport to the Home Islands where most HI is still makes sense and reducing the need to greatly increase resorces & oil on map. Just that the HI product does nothing. It simply is where resources become supply and oil becomes fuel (and supply??).

So no code changes required. It has always been possible but the modders had other things to do like sorting out the correct number of mortars per Dutch battalion in the OOB to ensure 'historic accuracy' and the missing armed Whaleboats listed on WhaleboatsAtWar.com [;)]

It would be tough to do though, and people will not easily agree to the right amounts. Lets face it as a board we never agree on things far less contentious than this [:D] The amount of extra resources & oil needed for Japan in the SRA is highly debateable. As is the correct number of aircraft replacements. Even if total numbers can be agreed you still have issues. If you divide the number of planes by the number of months the plane was in production you get roughly the right amount of replacements when the plane was considered a modern design but tend to overstate its total production as WitP never reduces or stops its production (and you can’t use factories to get round this as the Japanese control these). While if you divide total war time production by the number of months from its introduction date to war end you get the correct totals built but understate the numbers when it was in its prime. WitPs current production model is just not that flexible.

If code changes are possible then a none production model is easier and there are other possibilities.

You could correct the 'same number produced each month' issue.

Other possibilities include letting the transport of resources and oil to the Home Islands give the Japanese VPs.

Or create separate Economic and Military victories. The Japanese win an economic victory IF they get a certain amount of Oil and Resources to the Home Islands. The allies can deflate their score based on their strategic bombing of the Homer Islands and possibly AK & TK tonnage sunk. If the Japanese get the SRA early then the allies need to get their bombers in range sooner or risk the Japanese winning an Economic Victory before the allies can get the usual VP multiple for a traditional Military win.