Of mines, minesweepers and shore batteries

[spence]

I always thought that sweeping mine was inherently dangerous.

According to the US Navy Historical Site, mines sank the following minesweepers:
USS Perry, USS Minivet, USS Portent, USS Salute, USS Skylark, USS Swerve, USS Tide

and the following Coastal Minesweepers (all designated as YMS-#):
19,21,24,30,39,50,71,84,103,304,350,365,378,385

(Losses are from all theaters for losses to mines)

According to the same site, Japanese shore batteries accounted for the following minesweepers:
USS Tanager - sunk in Manila Bay near Corregidor in May 42, YMS-48, YMS-481

Comparing these RL results to those one sees in WitP it appears that danger to minesweepers performing their primary function was more severe than portrayed in WitP and the danger to minesweepers from shore batteries is grossly overstated in WitP.

The TROMs at Combined Fleet are incomplete for such minesweepers as are even mentioned (don't think it speaks to the equivalent of YMSs at all) but the W-9 was mined and sunk in the DEI and the W-22 hit an air laid mine later in the war and was sunk (Palau I think). And W-22 hit a mine and was damaged severely late in the war in home waters, was run aground to prevent sinking and was never repaired (though it may have been doing something else besides minesweeping). Two IJN minesweeps were sunk by shore batteries in the DEI (each by 1 4.7" shell).

[castor troy]

tell me how often Allied MSWs (or Japanese) tried to sweep mines in front of enemy CD guns...

[witpqs]

I admit I'm not looking at any evidence at the moment, but I assume they went in with every invasion?

[spence]

tell me how often Allied MSWs (or Japanese) tried to sweep mines in front of enemy CD guns...

I admit I'm not looking at any evidence at the moment, but I assume they went in with every invasion?

Either Japanese (and Allied) commanders had an uncanny ability to put their minefields where they would do no good whatever or I would make the same assumption.

But the record for CD guns in general is pretty poor. The major CD installations (ones with 9.2"+ guns) were never challenged by ships of any nation. Most of the Japanese landings occurred on beaches or in ports that were not defended by CD guns (Wake Island being one costly [HIJMS Hayate] and notable exception). I would say that the Japanese CD guns compiled a particularly poor record since they opposed far more assault landings than anyone else and didn't achieve much.

From the same USN Historical Site it appears that during WW2 Japanese CD guns sank:

USS Longshaw (DD) after it had grounded off Okinawa
the aforementioned USS Tanager trapped in Manila Bay
YMS-48 - off Okinawa
YMS-481 - off Okinawa
LCS(L) 3-33 (whatever that was) off Iwo Jima
and 1 x LCI(G) off Iwo Jima

[Mike Scholl]

Remember..., neither side attacked actual Coast Defense installations. The Japs gave them a wide bearth, and we would have done likewise if/when we invaded Japan. A "gun on the coast" is only marginally a "Coast Defense Gun". Real Coast Artillery (like the US had a Manilla, the British at Singapore, or the Japanese at Tokyo Bay) is an integrated system of spotting, fire control, balistics, etc. The US had some "mobile" versions of this..., but the Japanese really didn't. They moved some guns around to defend various islands..., but the fire control wasn't up to CD needs most of the time. That's why their record is pretty poor.

Had the Allies attempted to force their way ashore against the real Japanese Coast Defenses in the Home Islands..., it would have been a different story. Same for the Japanese at various places around the Pacific...which is why they didn't try to invade those places. What usually comes up in games played is some artillery firing defensively from the coast (same general thing as at Normandy and about as effective). The Allies didn't come ashore at Cherbourg or Le Havre where the real CD systems were in Europe..., and nobody tried it in the Pacific either.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: spence

tell me how often Allied MSWs (or Japanese) tried to sweep mines in front of enemy CD guns...

I admit I'm not looking at any evidence at the moment, but I assume they went in with every invasion?

Either Japanese (and Allied) commanders had an uncanny ability to put their minefields where they would do no good whatever or I would make the same assumption.

But the record for CD guns in general is pretty poor. The major CD installations (ones with 9.2"+ guns) were never challenged by ships of any nation. Most of the Japanese landings occurred on beaches or in ports that were not defended by CD guns (Wake Island being one costly [HIJMS Hayate] and notable exception). I would say that the Japanese CD guns compiled a particularly poor record since they opposed far more assault landings than anyone else and didn't achieve much.

From the same USN Historical Site it appears that during WW2 Japanese CD guns sank:

USS Longshaw (DD) after it had grounded off Okinawa
the aforementioned USS Tanager trapped in Manila Bay
YMS-48 - off Okinawa
YMS-481 - off Okinawa
LCS(L) 3-33 (whatever that was) off Iwo Jima
and 1 x LCI(G) off Iwo Jima

Of course, one must also keep in mind that by the time Japanese CD would have faced true invasions, the Allies had air supremacy and enough BBs to supress any attempts and shelling the landing ships, had they not simply avoided the heavy CD areas. So is it really a question of inadequate performance of the CD batteries, or simply the sheer power of the allied war machine and superior tactics as the Japanese were being pushed back?

The bad thing about large coastal defense guns is that they are more or less immobile, built into heavily fortified positions, and very easy to target from the air. They can also be avoided.

It was air power that made the most difference in the Pacific Theatre (to a far greater extent than in Europe).

Also keep in mind that the allies tended to bypass the most heavily defended Japanese island bases, since they could be cut off from supply simply with LBA.

There were a lot of factors against the CDs by the end of the war. And in most cases, they were never even given an opportunity to engage, simply by landings taking place in areas that were out of the CD batteries ranges.

[Knavey]

Any chance the ability of a side to lay 10000+ mines in a hex is going to be eliminated?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Any chance the ability of a side to lay 10000+ mines in a hex is going to be eliminated?

They said they have made changes to the way mines are supplied that will greatly curtail mine warfare.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

There were a lot of factors against the CDs by the end of the war. And in most cases, they were never even given an opportunity to engage, simply by landings taking place in areas that were out of the CD batteries ranges.

This is part of why I don't like house rules forbidding invasions at non-base (or dot) hexes.

[spence]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

There were a lot of factors against the CDs by the end of the war. And in most cases, they were never even given an opportunity to engage, simply by landings taking place in areas that were out of the CD batteries ranges.


This is part of why I don't like house rules forbidding invasions at non-base (or dot) hexes.

Kinda hard to avoid the CDs in the game when their range extends to the whole hex. Perhaps something akin to the new AE ZOC rules should be applied to the major CD installations such as Manila, San Francisco, etc and the lesser guns at the outlying areas should simply participate in the anti-landing combat rather than get a chance to beat up on the ships.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Any chance the ability of a side to lay 10000+ mines in a hex is going to be eliminated?

They said they have made changes to the way mines are supplied that will greatly curtail mine warfare.

It appears it will be a really big problem finding 10,000 mines to lay anywhere..., supplies are fairly limited.

[spence]

2204 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
MSW Sheldrake, Shell hits 305, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Pursuit, Shell hits 191, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Gladiator, Shell hits 280, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Signet, Shell hits 233, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Zane, Shell hits 203, on fire, heavy damage
DE Connolly
DE Gendreau
DE William C. Cole, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LST LST-21, Mine hits 1, on fire
DE Snyder
DE Hemminger
DE Paul G. Baker, Mine hits 1, heavy damage
LCI(G) LCI(G)-398, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Sarasota, Mine hits 1
LST LST-45, Mine hits 1, on fire
AP Henry T. Allen, Mine hits 1
LST LST-72, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LST LST-27, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LCI(G) LCI(G)-403, Mine hits 14, on fire, heavy damage
LSD Carter Hall, Mine hits 1, on fire
LCI(G) LCI(G)-401, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Moreton Bay, Mine hits 1
LST LST-171, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LST LST-175, Mine hits 1, on fire
AP Olmsted, Mine hits 1, on fire

Lifted from an AAR. So how many out there want to argue that this is just like real?????

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: spence

2204 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
MSW Sheldrake, Shell hits 305, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Pursuit, Shell hits 191, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Gladiator, Shell hits 280, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Signet, Shell hits 233, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Zane, Shell hits 203, on fire, heavy damage
DE Connolly
DE Gendreau
DE William C. Cole, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LST LST-21, Mine hits 1, on fire
DE Snyder
DE Hemminger
DE Paul G. Baker, Mine hits 1, heavy damage
LCI(G) LCI(G)-398, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Sarasota, Mine hits 1
LST LST-45, Mine hits 1, on fire
AP Henry T. Allen, Mine hits 1
LST LST-72, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LST LST-27, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LCI(G) LCI(G)-403, Mine hits 14, on fire, heavy damage
LSD Carter Hall, Mine hits 1, on fire
LCI(G) LCI(G)-401, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Moreton Bay, Mine hits 1
LST LST-171, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LST LST-175, Mine hits 1, on fire
AP Olmsted, Mine hits 1, on fire

Lifted from an AAR. So how many out there want to argue that this is just like real?????

It depends on several factors, number of guns in the hex, number of ships bombarding, number of escorts for shore battery supression.

I wonder if we know how many shells were expended on the typical shore bombardment mission by the end of the war? Would be an interesting counter argument to the CD debate.

[pad152]

You can clear minefields one hex away with MSW's, try that next time before you invade!!!

I like mine warfare, but it seems a few either don't know how to use it, or just abuse it.
I hope Matrix doesn't ruin it for the rest of us, because of this.

One of the issues is recon/feedback, you can't tell the size of a mine field outside of your own base,you could never even tell if airborne mining even worked or how effective it was because you couldn't tell how many mines are dropped or any info on the size of the minefield.

Subs/MSW's should be able to recon a minefield with general info such as minefield detected and guess on it's size few, small, large, etc.

I've never seen nightfighters intercept bombers that were on mine-laying mission or seen a ship hit by an airbone dropped mine (no way to tell)!

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: pad152

I've never seen nightfighters intercept bombers that were on mine-laying mission or seen a ship hit by an airbone dropped mine (no way to tell)!

bombers on minelaying mission can´t be intercepted in WTIP, no matter if at night or at daylight.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: pad152

You can clear minefields one hex away with MSW's, try that next time before you invade!!!

What do you mean - could you explain a little bit?

[Ken Estes]

Just had a 'new' experience with CD. I am in Jan42 playing USN now, trying to reinf/hold Rabaul and AI landed a couple times, the last bringing the CD unit from Truk! I sent in a CA squadron to bombard and help the base garrison hold out a bit longer and was I hacked up, both DD escorts sunk, but I guess the guns must have been 5-inch or smaller, as the CAs got away with +5/6 damage. Arrghhh
 
I too would like to know the offset MSW option.  BTW, submarines detect minefields only the hard way until 1945, I think.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: pad152

You can clear minefields one hex away with MSW's, try that next time before you invade!!!

What do you mean - could you explain a little bit?

exactly like he wrote it! [;)] put your MSWs to the hex next to the hex where you think that there are mines and then they sweep them. At least it should work like this, but I always forget about that myself and send my MSWs directly in front of the enemy CD guns...

[Panther Bait]

Btw, I think some of those MSWs (particularly the coastal variety) were hit by CDs while performing other duties than minesweeping.  Once the mines were swept in an area, the USN used the YMS boats for other duties like marking lanes for landing craft, etc. that might also have put them in harm's way.

[DrewMatrix]

Was D Day in France an "invasion in the face of coastal defence guns"?