Kamikaze missions

[JustJoe]

What is the benefit for using airgroups as Kamikazes instead of thier normal bombing missions? Is there a greater chance of them getting thru the CAP and flak? Do they inflict more damage?

What are the best aircraft for Kamikaze missions? Is this a good use for those seemingly worthless Night Fighters?

Any tips on the use of Kamikaze missions would be greatly appreciated.

[wild_Willie2]

The "good" thing about Kami's is the fact that your untrained late war 30-40EXP crews get a "small" chance of actually hitting something (although they will only get ONE chance [:D][:D][:D][:D]).

Best plane's for the job are Torp carriers (they are big planes with a BIG torpedo warhead= BIGGER boom) 

Usual tactic to beat late war allied UBER CAP is to attack with kami groups set to extremely high and extremely low altitudes, doing so "might" give a chance of scoring a hit...  

If you can use kami's, you can ALSO use ohka's, which in fact are REALLY big boom kami's. (although they have an even smaller chance of hitting a target than kami's have)

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

The "good" thing about Kami's is the fact that your untrained late war 30-40EXP crews get a "small" chance of actually hitting something (although they will only get ONE chance [:D][:D][:D][:D]).

Best plane's for the job are Torp carriers (they are big planes with a BIG torpedo warhead= BIGGER boom) 

Usual tactic to beat late war allied UBER CAP is to attack with kami groups set to extremely high and extremely low altitudes, doing so "might" give a chance of scoring a hit...  

If you can use kami's, you can ALSO use ohka's, which in fact are REALLY big boom kami's. (although they have an even smaller chance of hitting a target than kami's have)

Do you have any expertise in this area? The subject of kamis comes up hardly at all, and from what I've seen on the forum, they are not even close to historical performance. Recall history showed at least 20% of them "hitting" or near-missing enough to cause damage to the ship. Do you have any idea what sort of percentage chance they have. Would 2-3% be about what the game allows? Of course historically there wasn't any such thing as uber-cap to affect the chances.

[greg_slith]

In the AE threads it was said that Kami's work... it's just the all powerful UberCap that makes them useless.  One of the big issues (for me anyway) is that the AI turns EVERY plane into a kami.  It leaves nothing for CAP, ASW, recon etc.  [X(]

[Feinder]

The most basic way to think of a Kami is that the plane acts just as normal, except you get a small accuracy bonus, and it's a one-way trip.  A DB/FB Kami attack is resolved with a 250kg AP bomb vs. deck armor.  A TB Kami attack is resolved with a torpedo.  I don't know if it resloves vs. deck or belt, but a torp obvioulsy penetrates both so it's moot.

But be advised that your 250kg AP Kami will be just as effective against RN CVs and BBs as they were previously - not very.

Also, it doesn't do you any good to convert Transports to Kamis, because they don't carry bombs (I can't remember if Recons carry bombs, if not, there's not point in converting them either).

Kami's are not nearly as effective in WitP as they were historically (largely due to "uber CAP").  I'd have to actually crunch the numbers, but at least for the RN (who suffered propotionatly more Kami hits than the USN for a variety of reasons), but it "feels" like the Kamis had about a 10% hit ratio (vs. about 2% or less in WitP).  Forgotten Fleet does actually give a good account of "this many planes came in, this many were killed by CAP, this many killed by flak, this many missed, this many hit), but not in any sort of table form (in in reports).

However, I'll also throw in the point that there are far more Kamis -available- in WiTP than there wer in real life as well.  Historically, there were maybe 7 - 8 times in 6 months that they threw 150+ Kamis at the fleet.  Most of the time, they were in nickle-packets of 4 - 5, rarely more than 10.  But in WitP (even in the 45 scen without optimized production), you can throw out 300+ plane strikes just about every week, far more than were actualy conducted historically, simply because of number of available squadrons and air-frames.

So just make sure both sides of the equation get "fixed".  "Uber CAP" does NEED to eb fixed.  But I'd suggest if you convert a squadron to Kami, after it's used the squadron should not return for 90 days or more.

-F-

[wild_Willie2]

To be honest, I have never even gotten as far into the game as to actually use/recieve kamie's. Al I know is from AAR's. Against the AI I ALWAYS win an autovictory by 1944 and then I dont want to play anymore because by then I have sunk the ENTIRE jap fleet and am bombing the home isles to dust....

[Panther Bait]

Also, in real life the kamikazes were much more effective near islands or other coastal areas where they could either be staged locally or come in from "behind" the land's radar shadow.  Both techniques drastically reduced the detection and interception times for the Allies with a direct decrease on both air-to-air interceptions and AAA effectiveness.  WitP (and AE) don't directly model those benefits, although AE is supposed to reduce both the overall CAP and AAA effectiveness to allow more "leakers".
 
Another reason kamikazes were very effective, particularly at Okinawa, was that the penny packet attacks had a tendency to target the RADAR picket ships.   The pickets had basically only their own AAA, and rarely had constant CAP overhead.  Combine that with the small size/lack of armor of most picket ships (DDs, DEs, LCIs mostly) and they were very vulnerable. 

[mdiehl]

A TB Kami attack is resolved with a torpedo.

That makes no sense, unless one imagines that the kamikaze flew that last several hundred meters under water. As I recall, very few kamikazes were sent out with torpedoes, and of those that hit targets, very few torps went off. When they did go off, their effects was basically that of aerial GP bombs, because they struck their targets well above the waterline.

[JustJoe]

If bomb loads equate damage in the game then using fighters would hardly be worth the loss of the plane as the damage would be negligible? 
 
Since at this stage of the war LB level bomber missions are suicide anyway, i.e. Hellen/Peggy,  they might be a good plane to use in the kamikaze roll. 

[Feinder]

Well, it's the ordinance that they carry (on the information screen), not the 'max load' value.  Most IJN  fighters carry the 60kg GP bomb (not very effective), but most later war IJA fighters carry 250kg AP bomb (quite effective). 
 
-F-

[RUPD3658]

I used them in a stock PBEM and had very little success.

On one occasion my opponant was trying to get an AK sunk to get rid of a AC fragmet. 40 Sallys attacked the lone AK and 3 hit it. It did not sink until hit by non-kami units the next day.

Not a good return on 40 planes.

On another occasion several night fighters rammed 2 LCVPs and sunk them. These were the only ships I sank with kamis. All other attacks were shredded by uber CAP.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

In the AE threads it was said that Kami's work... it's just the all powerful UberCap that makes them useless.  One of the big issues (for me anyway) is that the AI turns EVERY plane into a kami.  It leaves nothing for CAP, ASW, recon etc.  [X(]

Yes, that's a real AI bummer when you consider that even IJ wasn't wacky enough to propose using over 50% of the planes ready for operation Olympic, slated as kamikaze.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

The most basic way to think of a Kami is that the plane acts just as normal, except you get a small accuracy bonus, and it's a one-way trip.  A DB/FB Kami attack is resolved with a 250kg AP bomb vs. deck armor.  A TB Kami attack is resolved with a torpedo.  I don't know if it resloves vs. deck or belt, but a torp obvioulsy penetrates both so it's moot.

But be advised that your 250kg AP Kami will be just as effective against RN CVs and BBs as they were previously - not very.

Also, it doesn't do you any good to convert Transports to Kamis, because they don't carry bombs (I can't remember if Recons carry bombs, if not, there's not point in converting them either).

Kami's are not nearly as effective in WitP as they were historically (largely due to "uber CAP").  I'd have to actually crunch the numbers, but at least for the RN (who suffered propotionatly more Kami hits than the USN for a variety of reasons), but it "feels" like the Kamis had about a 10% hit ratio (vs. about 2% or less in WitP).  Forgotten Fleet does actually give a good account of "this many planes came in, this many were killed by CAP, this many killed by flak, this many missed, this many hit), but not in any sort of table form (in in reports).

However, I'll also throw in the point that there are far more Kamis -available- in WiTP than there wer in real life as well.  Historically, there were maybe 7 - 8 times in 6 months that they threw 150+ Kamis at the fleet.  Most of the time, they were in nickle-packets of 4 - 5, rarely more than 10.  But in WitP (even in the 45 scen without optimized production), you can throw out 300+ plane strikes just about every week, far more than were actualy conducted historically, simply because of number of available squadrons and air-frames.

So just make sure both sides of the equation get "fixed".  "Uber CAP" does NEED to eb fixed.  But I'd suggest if you convert a squadron to Kami, after it's used the squadron should not return for 90 days or more.

-F-

There's a flaw in your historic account. The kami's and all planes for that matter, were largely being saved for the invasion of the Home Islands, so that for the proposed Operation Olympic they had over 7000 planes ready with over 3500 slated for kamikaze. I rather doubt they would be used in much penny packets in such a case, but you never know. I have never seen anything to suggest how they would be used at that point.

[Feinder]

There's a flaw in your historic account.

There's no flaw in my historical account.  [;)]
 
Most of  us (myself included) are all very well aware of the fact that that Japan had roughly 7000 planes they were "saving" for Operation Olympic.  I was simply stating that during the course of 1945, there were only 7 - 8 days that Japan launched an "all out" Kamikaze attacks on the US/UK fleets.  There is nothing incorrect or misrepresentative about that statement.
 
The Historical Picture - Japan chose to save those 7000 planes for Operation Olympic, both sides knew they were looking at November-ish for the assault (the summer/fall being hte typhoon season).  They saved those planes because had they used them in June/July/August, they would NOT have been available in November.  And FYI, despite popular perception, Japanese aviators were generlly -NOT- rushing to bang down the doors of the Kamikaze recruiting office.
 
The WitP picture - Let's say it's July 1945 in-game, and you have that 7000 plane reserve available to you to sling at the Allied fleets.  You mirror the historical situation.  If you want to sling those 7000 planes at the Allied fleets, go ahead - that's 1500/planes a month = 5 or 6 250+ plane strikes per month.  Difference being, in WitP you can replace many of those planes by November (altho 7000 planes in 4 months is a bit ambitious, I'd say you could replace 5000).
 
-F-

[castor troy]

It´s correct that the planes can be replaced but with pilots average experienced 35 only one out of 400 will break through CAP and flak fire to hit a ship. Then it´s perhaps only a barge, an AK or perhaps a DD. If you´re unlucky then the kamikaze bounces off a BB´s armor. For me it just doesn´t matter if my Japanese opponent replaces those 5000 planes that he lost in May sometime in November to send them out again as they don´t do him any good. They only increase my score and drain his HI pool.

People already mentioned that often enough, number of planes doesn´t matter that much, if you use them with pilots in the mid 30s. And you can´t train kamikaze daitais with ground attacks, so aircraft numbers in kamikaze daitais matter even less than aircraft numbers in normal daitais (which CAN be trained with ground attacks).

[Feinder]

It´s correct that the planes can be replaced but with pilots average experienced 35 only one out of 400 will break through CAP and flak fire to hit a ship.

Correct, that's why I'm saying that *both* sides of the equation are broken.

-F-

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

It´s correct that the planes can be replaced but with pilots average experienced 35 only one out of 400 will break through CAP and flak fire to hit a ship. Then it´s perhaps only a barge, an AK or perhaps a DD. If you´re unlucky then the kamikaze bounces off a BB´s armor. For me it just doesn´t matter if my Japanese opponent replaces those 5000 planes that he lost in May sometime in November to send them out again as they don´t do him any good. They only increase my score and drain his HI pool.

People already mentioned that often enough, number of planes doesn´t matter that much, if you use them with pilots in the mid 30s. And you can´t train kamikaze daitais with ground attacks, so aircraft numbers in kamikaze daitais matter even less than aircraft numbers in normal daitais (which CAN be trained with ground attacks).

There was a study of kamikazes by the USN. Almost 500 made it to the point that they were seen to be headed for a specific ship, of which about 36% hit. How do those figures fit the game model?

[mdiehl]

The plain fact is that most kamikazes got nowhere near an allied ship and most that hit ships did not sink the ships they hit. Something like 35-50 vessels in total were sunk by kamikazes, and most of these were lost as a consequence of fire damage that occurred after multiple kamikaze hits. For many ships, especially the heavily armored ones, a kamikaze hit be it by a kate, val, or anything else, was mostly a threat to personnel.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The plain fact is that most kamikazes got nowhere near an allied ship and most that hit ships did not sink the ships they hit. Something like 35-50 vessels in total were sunk by kamikazes, and most of these were lost as a consequence of fire damage that occurred after multiple kamikaze hits. For many ships, especially the heavily armored ones, a kamikaze hit be it by a kate, val, or anything else, was mostly a threat to personnel.

27 sunk.

Class Attacks Hits
CL/CA/BB 48 44%
CV 44 41%
CVE/CVL 37 48%
DD 241 36%
AP/APA/AK/AKA 21 43%
LSM/LST/LSV 49 22%
Small Craft 37 22%

Morse and Kimball, 1951.

[Panther Bait]

The Kamikaze's were much more dangerous to crews, particularly exposed crews like lookouts and AAA personnel or crews on unarmored ships like DDs/DEs than the ships, but the Kamikaze's did eat into the available escort vessels off Okinawa.  DD/DE losses, not just sunk but ships damaged to the extent that they could not stay on station, were getting severe enough to cause a lot of concern.  Morale on the pickets was taking a hit as well, since they felt they were very exposed when on station.  There were some hard feelings between the USN and the Army, since the ground campaign was taking longer than anticipated and army units were providing much of the CAP along with the CVEs.  TF 58/38 was usually out on offensive missions, like airfield suppression on the HI or neighboring islands, not providing CAP at the beach.
 
Convoy escort and ASW patrols were thinned out to make up losses in the AAA pickets.  Luckily the IJN subs by 1945 were not much of a threat to the USN/RN.