Possible Bugs in Movement Rates and Formation Size?

[Rich Dionne]

I noticed a few things that appear to be bugs, but I’m not sure. Here they are:

1) Bicycle troops appear to march at exactly the same rate as foot troops. The estabs indicate foot troops moving at 6 kph normal and 9 kph max, while bicycle troops list a normal rate of 8 kph and a max rate of 12 kph, about 33% faster (I would argue it should be more like 50% faster, but that could probably be debated). However, I ran some “road races” between bicycle and foot troops and I could see no difference in rate of march.

2) Similar to the item above, horse cavalry appear to march at exactly the same rate as foot troops. In this case, the estabs do indicate foot troops moving at the same rate as cavalry, but sources I found indicate that cavalry could average about 50%+ higher rates of march than infantry. So I would think horse cavalry should move faster. Note, this would only apply to actual horse cavalry, not units containing horse drawn wagons, which tend to move slower.

3) Units like heavy artillery containing trucks for towing guns do not appear to be impacted by not having enough trucks to tow the guns. I ran road tests between similar artillery units, except with one unit stripped down to 1 truck type per unit, and movement rates appeared to be identical. Is it possible that when a unit loses trucks in combat, that the guns are automatically destroyed along with the truck to cover this issue? I must admit that I didn’t check for that.

4) Finally, in comparing unit formation footprints, I cannot find any influence by the number or size of weapons or vehicles in the unit. Formation size only seems to be affected by the number of personnel. For example, take any 2 units with the same number of personnel but with significant differences in number of vehicles or large weapons; the formation footprints always seem to be the same, at least as far as I can tell. With all of the cool vehicle and weapon size info you have in the estabs, I would have thought that these values would have some impact on unit formation footprints. Perhaps I’m just missing something here.

Anyway, I love the game, but these minor points seemed a bit odd to me. Maybe I’m just not looking at it correctly?

Regards,

Rich

[Rich Dionne]

Any comments on the issues I previously posted above?

I figured you guys have just been too busy with the patch to respond until now.

Also, I found a very minor bug in the map maker program. If you try to edit a point on an existing map from control point to corner point (or vice versa) using the Ctrl+T key, and then try to save the file using the "Save" function, you lose the edit when you reload the file. However, if you use the "Save As" function, the file is overwritten and the point edits are properly saved.

Regards,

Rich Dionne

[Arjuna]

Rich Dionne,
 
Sorry for the delay. This one must have slipped under the radar here.
 

1) Bicycle troops appear to march at exactly the same rate as foot troops. The estabs indicate foot troops moving at 6 kph normal and 9 kph max, while bicycle troops list a normal rate of 8 kph and a max rate of 12 kph, about 33% faster (I would argue it should be more like 50% faster, but that could probably be debated). However, I ran some “road races” between bicycle and foot troops and I could see no difference in rate of march.

Re the rates. I would agree that 50% would have been better. However, the poor roads and generally rough terrain in Greece and Crete probably justify the 33% rate.
 
Re. speed test. When you ran those "road races", did you give separate Move orders to each type and were they individual units - ie not moving in formation with any other unit? Over what terrain? Do you have a saved game?
 

2) Similar to the item above, horse cavalry appear to march at exactly the same rate as foot troops. In this case, the estabs do indicate foot troops moving at the same rate as cavalry, but sources I found indicate that cavalry could average about 50%+ higher rates of march than infantry. So I would think horse cavalry should move faster. Note, this would only apply to actual horse cavalry, not units containing horse drawn wagons, which tend to move slower.

IIRC our original thinking here was that the Greek cav forces were essentially mounted infantry. We don't have any code at the moment that models the separation of the transport component from the foot component. So hence the decision to make them effectively foot. This issue is something on our wish list. See this discussion on the war-historical newsgroup: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical/browse_thread/thread/9c957868508363a2/9eaf7018532cf9b7?hl=en&
 

3) Units like heavy artillery containing trucks for towing guns do not appear to be impacted by not having enough trucks to tow the guns. I ran road tests between similar artillery units, except with one unit stripped down to 1 truck type per unit, and movement rates appeared to be identical. Is it possible that when a unit loses trucks in combat, that the guns are automatically destroyed along with the truck to cover this issue? I must admit that I didn’t check for that.

Actually there is code that culls equipment that can't be manned or carried. I'll review that to see if it checks for towing vehicles. I believe it does, but I'll check.
 
TT3485 - AI - CullEquip() - Ensure guns without towing vehicles are culled
 

4) Finally, in comparing unit formation footprints, I cannot find any influence by the number or size of weapons or vehicles in the unit. Formation size only seems to be affected by the number of personnel. For example, take any 2 units with the same number of personnel but with significant differences in number of vehicles or large weapons; the formation footprints always seem to be the same, at least as far as I can tell. With all of the cool vehicle and weapon size info you have in the estabs, I would have thought that these values would have some impact on unit formation footprints. Perhaps I’m just missing something here.

In general it is based on PersQty. We do modify it for motorised units IIRC, but we do not specifically factor in differences between vehicle types. Invariably this mattered little as tactical considerations overrode them - eg, keep vehicles paced 50m apart so we don't lose everyone in an ambush.
 

[Rich Dionne]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Rich Dionne,

Sorry for the delay. This one must have slipped under the radar here.

1) Bicycle troops appear to march at exactly the same rate as foot troops. The estabs indicate foot troops moving at 6 kph normal and 9 kph max, while bicycle troops list a normal rate of 8 kph and a max rate of 12 kph, about 33% faster (I would argue it should be more like 50% faster, but that could probably be debated). However, I ran some “road races” between bicycle and foot troops and I could see no difference in rate of march.

Re the rates. I would agree that 50% would have been better. However, the poor roads and generally rough terrain in Greece and Crete probably justify the 33% rate.

Re. speed test. When you ran those "road races", did you give separate Move orders to each type and were they individual units - ie not moving in formation with any other unit? Over what terrain? Do you have a saved game?

No problem Dave, I know you guys have been busy. Regarding the speed test, I gave each unit (bicycle and foot) separate move orders. They each moved over flat road terrain at fastest, quickest speed. There is no difference in their rates. I will send you a separate e-mail with the save file.

2) Similar to the item above, horse cavalry appear to march at exactly the same rate as foot troops. In this case, the estabs do indicate foot troops moving at the same rate as cavalry, but sources I found indicate that cavalry could average about 50%+ higher rates of march than infantry. So I would think horse cavalry should move faster. Note, this would only apply to actual horse cavalry, not units containing horse drawn wagons, which tend to move slower.

IIRC our original thinking here was that the Greek cav forces were essentially mounted infantry. We don't have any code at the moment that models the separation of the transport component from the foot component. So hence the decision to make them effectively foot. This issue is something on our wish list. See this discussion on the war-historical newsgroup: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical/browse_thread/thread/9c957868508363a2/9eaf7018532cf9b7?hl=en&

Regarding the thread, your interim plan for separating off transport back to the unit base sounds like a good one. But if you do this in the future, you may want to consider giving cavalry a movement bonus over foot troops when in the transport mode.

3) Units like heavy artillery containing trucks for towing guns do not appear to be impacted by not having enough trucks to tow the guns. I ran road tests between similar artillery units, except with one unit stripped down to 1 truck type per unit, and movement rates appeared to be identical. Is it possible that when a unit loses trucks in combat, that the guns are automatically destroyed along with the truck to cover this issue? I must admit that I didn’t check for that.

Actually there is code that culls equipment that can't be manned or carried. I'll review that to see if it checks for towing vehicles. I believe it does, but I'll check.

TT3485 - AI - CullEquip() - Ensure guns without towing vehicles are culled

I have a save file that I will send to you with two artillery units, one severely lacking motor transport, that moves at the same rate as a full strength unit (given separate identical movement orders).

4) Finally, in comparing unit formation footprints, I cannot find any influence by the number or size of weapons or vehicles in the unit. Formation size only seems to be affected by the number of personnel. For example, take any 2 units with the same number of personnel but with significant differences in number of vehicles or large weapons; the formation footprints always seem to be the same, at least as far as I can tell. With all of the cool vehicle and weapon size info you have in the estabs, I would have thought that these values would have some impact on unit formation footprints. Perhaps I’m just missing something here.

In general it is based on PersQty. We do modify it for motorised units IIRC, but we do not specifically factor in differences between vehicle types. Invariably this mattered little as tactical considerations overrode them - eg, keep vehicles paced 50m apart so we don't lose everyone in an ambush.

[/quote]
Sounds good!

[Arjuna]

Rich,
 
I got your email. My reply to you bounced. I did not receive the files you sent earlier. I don't use that email address you sent them to. Can you please email the saved game files to dave[at]panthergames[dot]com. Thanks.

[Rich Dionne]

Dave,

Sorry for the bounce. My e-mail address was out of date. I just updated it. I also just sent you the save files to your e-mail address shown above.

Regards,

Rich

[Arjuna]

Got it, thanks.

[Arjuna]

TT3485 - AI - CullEquip() - Ensure guns without towing vehicles are culled
Done for BFTB