Advance/Withdraw to HullDown Command

[Mraah]

I was wondering if there were plans on creating a command to allow your vehicle to find a hulldown location amongst the terrain it's located in?

The command whould allow you to move the vehicle, say, within 20 meters and randomly "roll" for a hulldown bonus dependant on the terrain in stops in.
For instance :
1. Clear Terrain - blocks location 1 or 2
2. Woods - blocks location 1 thru 6

Any shots within 45 degrees of the front could provide an additional armor bonus like that stated in the panzer-wars game. Such as clear terrain would be +1 and woods can be up to +6. Also, a driver skill can help with the odds of finding a hull down location. And, having a Withdraw to HD you can adjust your vehicle and hope for a better "roll", if not a better angle to keep your front facing the threat.

The Hull Down status could be shown on the coin.

I know that hull down effects are in PCOWS based on the LOS and perhaps the "can't see it, can't hit it" theory ... but in addition to LOS you can have a hull down position with an armor bonus without depicting every nook and cranny of the terrain. So now, you can hit it, but with a bonus to protection. Or, to get more detailed, every hit that doesn't penetrate thru the block causes it to reduce the effectiveness of the block.

Just another thought.

Rob

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Mraah
Any shots within 45 degrees of the front could provide an additional armor bonus like that stated in the panzer-wars game. Such as clear terrain would be +1 and woods can be up to +6. Also, a driver skill can help with the odds of finding a hull down location. And, having a Withdraw to HD you can adjust your vehicle and hope for a better "roll", if not a better angle to keep your front facing the threat.

If there are rock walls or rubble piles that a tank could shoot over then a hulldown armor bonus be given to the lower hull if the target was hulldown behind it. This would all be done with rays so if the ray impacted on the model of the wall/rubble on its way to the target tank then it would be given hulldown. So the angle the tank was facing would not matter.

ORIGINAL: Mraah
The Hull Down status could be shown on the coin.

Good idea. I'l like to see a radio contact lamp shown on the coin too. Coins can be used to show some information at a glance. More so than bases. The only thing is only weapons pits give an all round hulldown. So a hull down behind a small berm may mean the tanks isn't protected from another direction. Thus giving a false sense of protection with a hulldown mark on its coin.

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

If there are rock walls or rubble piles that a tank could shoot over then a hulldown armor bonus be given to the lower hull if the target was hulldown behind it. This would all be done with rays so if the ray impacted on the model of the wall/rubble on its way to the target tank then it would be given hulldown. So the angle the tank was facing would not matter.

Good morning Mobius. Thanks for the fast reply!

Is there currently any hull down bonus for being in woods or rough terrain? ... or does the To-Hit odds basically reflect this?

ORIGINAL: Mraah
The Hull Down status could be shown on the coin.

ORIGINAL : Mobius
Good idea. I'l like to see a radio contact lamp shown on the coin too. Coins can be used to show some information at a glance. More so than bases. The only thing is only weapons pits give an all round hulldown. So a hull down behind a small berm may mean the tanks isn't protected from another direction. Thus giving a false sense of protection with a hulldown mark on its coin.

Hmm, perhaps the hull down marker can ONLY appear on the coin when you select your unit which has a target, or if you run your cursor over an enemy unit using the LOS tool. It would also show up on the target coin if it was hull down relative to your unit. This would be GREAT and allow you to move your unit up to a berm or a hilltop and wait for the icon to show up. Or, if you have a command to "ADV to HD", you can tell the AI to move the tank until it's hull down with that target.

For bases , the hull down marker can simply be a colored ring. Maybe three colors ;

Red - locations 1-6 blocked
Yellow - locations 1-3 blocked
Green - no block

Thanks for listening!! Just an idea.

Rob

[freeboy]

how abouthte ability to orient at an angle the hull while facing the turret? a commen tactic in ww2

[Grell]

Hi Freeboy,

Now that is a good idea.

Regards,

Grell

[Mraah]

You could go with more detail on the subject depending on how high of a command structure you're modelling. The coin could show a value 1 thru 11 showing you how much of your tank (or the enemies) is hull down.

A more detailed command for hull down could be given.

For instance, while on a hilltop, your current hulldown status is 11, meaning only your commanders cupola is exposed (well, 13 is the cupola but it appears 11 is the highest turret location on most of the vehicles). Then, in the orders phase, allow the command, ADV TO HD - FIRE. The tank mould move forward a bit and fire a few rounds. Then, in the reactions phase you would allow the command, W/D TO HD (withdraw to HD), then select a value set (1-3,4-6,11) telling the driver to reverse this far back. Again, all references are to the TARGET.

Basically, a shoot-and-scoot .

If not numbers, perhaps letters to label the status ... A=1-3, B=4-6, C=11 .

Rob

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Mraah
Good morning Mobius. Thanks for the fast reply!

Is there currently any hull down bonus for being in woods or rough terrain? ... or does the To-Hit odds basically reflect this?

No. Woods to-hit penalty is just from obscurance of target. Hull down is figured by two rays emanating from the firer. One is set high, I guess at turret level. The other is low, maybe at ground level. If the low one impacts a solid thing like the ground but the upper one doesn't the target is hulldown. That's about all I know of how it works.

[Erik Rutins]

The real question is "hull down vs. what"? Panzer Command is a 3D game and we do line of sight/fire as a combination 3D rays and terrain maps. As a result, you may be in a position that is hull down to a target right in front of you, but not hull down to the guy on another slope 60 degrees from your front. We check this for each shot back and forth. If you do have a hull down position, you will see messages about "ground hit deflected" as shots that would have hit one of your vehicle's lower hit locations are instead deflected by the ground.

Personally, I've found that if I get down and "eyeball" a hull down location it generally works pretty intuitively.

Regards,

- Erik

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The real question is "hull down vs. what"?

Vs. the target or using the LOS tool against another unit. Something that could be quickly determined at that moment instead of jumping to binocular view for each tank. I would want to know because if I had 3 tanks facing me, which tank see's me as hull down so I can concentrate the fire against the threats that have a better chance of killing me.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If you do have a hull down position, you will see messages about "ground hit deflected" as shots that would have hit one of your vehicle's lower hit locations are instead deflected by the ground.

Personally, I've found that if I get down and "eyeball" a hull down location it generally works pretty intuitively.

Regards,
- Erik

Oh, I didn't know you'd see a message about "ground hit deflected" in PCOWS, or is this added to Karkov?
Perhaps I haven't come across a full hull down battle yet OR I'm totally blind . I'm still new to PCOWS so I haven't played all the scenarios yet.

Thanks!

Rob

[benpark]

What about a graphical display of where a given vehicle has hull down protection. A color coded disk under a given unit would be nifty, with color where the AFV is protected, and grayed out where it isn't.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Mraah
Vs. the target or using the LOS tool against another unit. Something that could be quickly determined at that moment instead of jumping to binocular view for each tank. I would want to know because if I had 3 tanks facing me, which tank see's me as hull down so I can concentrate the fire against the threats that have a better chance of killing me.

Right - that's my point - it's target dependent. So we could add such info to the Line of Sight checker, but we can't really add it to the unit icon since it depends entirely on which enemy unit you are checking against.

Oh, I didn't know you'd see a message about "ground hit deflected" in PCOWS, or is this added to Karkov? Perhaps I haven't come across a full hull down battle yet OR I'm totally blind . I'm still new to PCOWS so I haven't played all the scenarios yet.

That's new to Kharkov, it's not in Winterstorm.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
The real question is "hull down vs. what"? Panzer Command is a 3D game and we do line of sight/fire as a combination 3D rays and terrain maps. As a result, you may be in a position that is hull down to a target right in front of you, but not hull down to the guy on another slope 60 degrees from your front. We check this for each shot back and forth. If you do have a hull down position, you will see messages about "ground hit deflected" as shots that would have hit one of your vehicle's lower hit locations are instead deflected by the ground.

The original Panzer War hull down rules were meant when played on topographical map hills with contour lines. Easy to define something as 'hull down' by the proximity to a contour line. No arguing.
Later when played on sand tables or 3D terrain maps it was a different kettle of fish. There you had to eyeball the hull down to each target. Each case was different. No more hull down by definition.

The line-of-sight tool could be enhance to determine hull down. Maybe if it was strung out to some point it would say if the tank was hull down from that point?

[rickier65]

I dont't know, seems to me that maybe we're moving beyond the scope of what the tank commander would know or do. (Not to mention the platoon or company commander).

Seems like the most you'd want to give order for is hull down and then the tank would serch in some designated radius around focus point to try and find a suitable hulldown oreitned to the front facing. Knowing that it isnt hull down in all directions.

But have to admit - my opinion probably somewhat premature, since I dont own PC:OWS, and only played demo a few times. But I've been sucked back into this thread based on lots of the comments - so looks like i'll be getting PCK.

Rick

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Rick

But have to admit - my opinion probably somewhat premature, since I dont own PC:OWS, and only played demo a few times. But I've been sucked back into this thread based on lots of the comments - so looks like i'll be getting PCK.

Rick

PCK will automatically upgrade PC:OWS. So you might as well get it too. Besides you get a discount on PCK if you buy them both....WS FIRST!!!

Good Hunting.

MR