Kamikaze Effectiveness: WITP and Real Life

[Q-Ball]

I am approaching '44 in my PBEM, and I'm wondering how effective Kamikazes are in WITP, and how that stacks up against real life. I read the Wikipedia article (for what that's worth), and it cited a US Navy report that indicated a 14% hit rate for Kamis, and 34 USN ships sunk, 368 damaged by Kamis. None of the sinkings were capital ships though, CVEs and DDs the largest. Are Kamis that effective in WITP, particularly in that hit rate? Or much less so? I assume that IRL, the Japanese were mostly using "35 experience" pilots.

Same questions for Okhas, though I think I have seen forum notes that Okhas are useless, IRL and in WITP.

I had always thought USS Franklin and USS Princton were hit by Kamis, and they weren't; both by single-plane DB attacks that surprised the CV. No way you could pull that off in WITP.

[skrewball]

Kami hit rates are useless in game...from what I Have read about 2% and that is using 60-80 Exp pilots. The UBER-Cap just decimates them. You can read alot about Kamis in PZBs AAR.

[Q-Ball]

I read PzB's AAR, and I was wondering if that's typical in other A2A models (CHS, RHS, BigB, NikMod). I am playing BigB. Has anyone made it to Kami-land in Big B, what are you finding with your Kamis?

[Canoerebel]

Miller and I are playing BigB and are nearing December 20, 1943, so he gets Kamikazes in 12 days, I think.  I'll let you know what happens.  I'm worried about them.

[pauk]

hey guys, wait... the big T will come soon and explain to you all that kamis working perfectly (as it was designed), although he didn't play the PBEM game after decembar 41...[:D]

[Andy Mac]

There is no real problem with Kamis the problems are ubercap. Pauk Kamis do more or less work as intended and are not broken
 
Kami hit rates for PZB are pathetic because the bombing routine takes the altitude of the aircraft so when he sends 100 HL Kamis they are in effect bombing from 40,000 feet.
 
Were the kamis to go in at 12,000 feet and get through they would get more hits so with respect the issue is not Kamis but CAP related.
 
Andy

[pauk]

yup, that is right. Kamis working as was intended when there is no ubercap.

But, depends how you look at the kamis. Do they work (will they get through ubercap?) or not? Since they can not get through ubercap they obviously do not work. [;)]

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Pauk Kamis do more or less work as intended and are not broken

Andy, but A2A combat model works as itended too (with small numbers of ac).

Do you realise what i'm trying to say? Theory is nice, but the reality is somewhat different. [:)]. Why the kamis do not work it is irrelevant to me, they don't work (against ubercap)...

[John Lansford]

I've seen a much lower hit rate for suicide planes than is mentioned in the wikipedia article; more around the 5% range than 14%.  I wonder how they came up with such a high rate?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I've seen a much lower hit rate for suicide planes than is mentioned in the wikipedia article; more around the 5% range than 14%. I wonder how they came up with such a high rate?

Could be one figure is taking the number of hits vs. number of aircraft that took off, and maybe the other number is number of hits vs. number of suicide dives... i'd have to check this out, though.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I've seen a much lower hit rate for suicide planes than is mentioned in the wikipedia article; more around the 5% range than 14%. I wonder how they came up with such a high rate?

Could be one figure is taking the number of hits vs. number of aircraft that took off, and maybe the other number is number of hits vs. number of suicide dives... i'd have to check this out, though.

No, I am pretty sure they were relying on the pilot's after action reports...............[X(]

[Feinder]

While I would agree that the %-chance of hitting with a Kami in WitP is only a fraction of what it was historically; before anyone goes gonzo to change hit chance for Kamikazes in WitP, you should also factor in the greater availability of squadrons-planes/replacements-pilots in WitP.  I think the raw chance of Kamis hitting in WitP is simply a (small) part of the greater problem. 
 
"Uber CAP" is what is decimating WitP Kamikazes to begin with.  That is what needs to be looked at (I believe they said it's fixed in AE), and after that, if Kamis still show an abysmal hit rate, THEN you look at tweaking the hit rate.
 
But in so doing, you've also got to factor the greater availability of Kamis in WitP - If historically you had 1000 Kamis in 6 months and a 15% hit rate; in WitP you can have 1000 Kamis in WitP in ONE DAY with with a 15% hit rate and you've just wiped out the Allied fleet and can produce another 1000 Kamis for next week...
 
-F-

[Q-Ball]

Fiender, your point is excellent, in that many aspects of the Air Model are OFF. Certainly, Japan can produce way more aircraft than historical, and conversely can get more of them slaughtered too than historical. The Japanese Pilot Pool gives you way less than historical, which is why everyone trains to then produce way more than historical.

I know AE is fixing much of this.

[PzB74]

It's probably possible to produce a lot more ac than historical, but I'm actually producing pretty much the same
amount of ac per month as Japan did historically in 44-45.

If I had increased engine and ac production rates sky high I'm not sure my industry would have fared all to well.
True enough, I have a large HI reserve, but it was impossible to say which influence enemy 4E would have on industry.
If it hadn't been for the capture of Sakhalin my HI reserves would have dwindled quickly.

The reason I am able to throw large numbers of ac against Andy's TFs is that I've built up a nice reserve pool of ac.
Currently this pool is being drawn on heavily. When the war ended Japan had more than 7000 ac and a lot of these would have
been expended in kamikaze missions. US estimated the total nr of Japanese ac at no more than 2-3000 at this stage.

Production numbers in my game are therefore rather realistic despite the following facts:
Heavy industry hasn't been bombed to pieced
Reinforced by resources and oil from India to Sakhalin
The enemy sub campaigns have been rather inefficient
Soviet Union campaign was 'bugged' and I still own Manchukuo

True enough, I could have produced even more ac but wanted to keep a reserve and not run out of supplies when the going got tough.

It is mostly the experience of kamis that decide whether they hit or not.
Experienced kamis hit well from 40k feet - but it's impossible to produce this pilots simply by putting them on 'training' mode.
Another factor is AA - TFs with lots of flak and ammo are more difficult to hit.

What I do is to single out small 5 ac kami details and give them the 5 monthly trained navy pilot reinforcements.
Here is an example from the last turn - not yet posted:

Day Air attack on TF, near Amami at 56,44

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zeke x 3

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 13
F6F Hellcat x 9
F4U-1 Corsair x 5
F4U-1D Corsair x 8
P-51D Mustang x 5 <- Mustangs on LRCAP only CAP fighters that can reach the high altitude kamis and they splash 2

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5c Zeke: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Barnes, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire <- a lone survivor (always the high exp pilot) crashes into the Barnes [8D]

If not for the Uber CAP most kamis would have gone in at a lower attitude, but even high altitude kamis are ok as long as
"SOME" enemy fighters can reach them. In this case a pretty realistic late evening/dusk attack were 3 Zekes swooped in and 1 got through to ram a CVE!

It is the Uber CAP that needs fixing - and after that the kami (and Ohka) hit rates need to be fine tuned.
Must have launched 150 Ohkas and all missed...until one beautiful day 2 rammed the same fleet carrier in the same attack [8|]

[Feinder]

I will say that my experience with Kamis is from a PBEM game vs. Oli.&nbsp; The 1945 scenario with me as Japan.&nbsp; I did not have the benefit of expanding the economy for 3 years (game started in Nov 44 I think).&nbsp; I also didn't have clue about production, so&nbsp;I couldn't have helped the economy if I wanted.&nbsp; But I -could- throw several massive raids vs. Oli's TFs in Philipines, on the order of 400 - 600 AC, about once a week (they were also suck pilots, as I didn't have the "benefit" of a "training program" either.
&nbsp;
I very quickly learned what "Uber CAP" was.&nbsp; Losing about 500 planes and only about 10 getting thru, only to bounce of his BBs.&nbsp; The next week, I "targeted" one of his CVE TFs (they were separate from the CVs, and closer in, I presume to cover the actual invasions).&nbsp; So I tightened the range on my strikes to NOT go after the CVs, and hit the CVE TFs (also only equipped with FM-2s).&nbsp; I still took heavy casualties, but did manage to sink 3&nbsp;or 4 CVEs.&nbsp;&nbsp;I also didn't know the "trick" of flying over CAP, I just went in at 14k.
&nbsp;
So anways, uber-CAP will shred Kamis.&nbsp; But I was also surprised that I could throw so many airframes (even with crap pilots) at Oli, about 500 a week, without having optimized production.
&nbsp;
However, I also came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the points.&nbsp; I lost about 2000 planes in a month, and sank 4x CVEs and handlful of DDs for efforts (a net negative in points).
&nbsp;
So while Kamis are certainly fun, they weren't worth the point exchange.

(* shrug *)
&nbsp;
-F-

[Q-Ball]

PzB and Fiender, excellent recaps, thank you! I have read several times that high-altitude and good pilots are the way to get hits, that crap pilots don't hit anything.

By the time you get to Kamis, the Allies can likely begin to interfere with any training program, so I think it will be impossible to launch large Kami strikes day after day. Maybe small attacks like PzB suggests are the way to go. I'll probably try a few things, I'm getting pressed already.