Norway

[Manic Inertia]

It's been a couple of years since I last put a msg on this forum, but I've been playing WiF almost continously, and can't wait to see this game on computer: no more angst about their being insufficient players (woo-hoo!).

Many of the threads that existed back in '06 have gone now, so I assume that means the game's moved onto more pressing matters than agonising about whether the counter mix or game rules should be reviewed, but even so, I'd appreciate the thoughts of fellow WiFFE'ers on the following;

The Germans were able to seize Norway very easily, mostly because the Norwegians were hamstrung by Quislings machinations and because Norway simply didn't mobilize its 6 divisions in time. In WiFFE, however, there's a huge and somewhat a-historical challenge to successfully conquering Norway, and so in our games Operation Weserübung is never attempted. So;

Q: doesn't MWiF present an opportunity to rectify this in some way? Maybe a later date for the Norwegian MTN unit?

I'm led to understand that Narvik was crucial for the exportation of Swedish iron ore, which had to be railed out west to Narvik and then shipped down the western scandinavian coast, when the Baltic was frozen over. So;

Q: If there had been a rail link from the swedish iron ore fields to the south of Sweden, why was Narvik used for that purpose, even in the teeth of the Royal Navy?

That said, when the Baltic is frozen in WiFFE games, it'd be impossibly dangerous to have german CONV sitting in the North Sea every impulse: they'd constantly get scrumped So;

Q: does there need to be a mechanism whereby CONV shipping resources down the fiords use some 'special rule' that allows them to occupy norwegian coastal hexes perhaps?

[Terminus]

The Germans didn't "seize Norway very easily". That's just rubbish. They came within a hair of losing everything at Narvik, for example, and suffered very heavy casualties overall.

[sajbalk]

Q: doesn't MWiF present an opportunity to rectify this in some way? Maybe a later date for the Norwegian MTN unit?

You'll find no difference in this version from WiFFE, the paper version.

Q: If there had been a rail link from the swedish iron ore fields to the south of Sweden, why was Narvik used for that purpose, even in the teeth of the Royal Navy?

It was a lot easier to ship the ore to the coast, on to ships, and to the destination. Until the war began, this made the most economic sense. That said, Sweden did develop its rail net later in the war so that Narvik was no longer as needed for exports.


Q: does there need to be a mechanism whereby CONV shipping resources down the fiords use some 'special rule' that allows them to occupy norwegian coastal hexes perhaps?

Withot the special Narvik rule, the Germans would have little incentive for invading Norway, so a deviation from regular resource shipping is used. The Germans normally convey the Swed or through the Baltic Sea. If the Sea Zones were arranged differently, it would make for a more historical invasion of Norway and better incentives for both sides to invade. However, the sea zones are where they are and I think the whole situation is a fair compromise in game design.

[composer99]

The Germans get the Swedish ore in the winter (that is, when the weather in the North Temperate during the production step of a turn is snow or blizzard) as long as Narvik is not Allied controlled with convoys still in the Baltic.
 
ADG tried to give Germany an incentive to invade Norway with a decent MECH SS volunteer unit in Oslo, but it has not been enough.

[Mitchellvitch]

We saw the German invasion in one of our last games. They didn't take excessive casualties, and lots of fun was had by all, but it didn't lead to much strategically for a hard-pressed Germany. Perhaps if the Allies run a convoy to Russia it makes a difference?

[bredsjomagnus]

I don´t get why up to 9 resorces a year isn´t a big deal. With high pm later in the war that´s alot of BPs?
 
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

I don´t get why up to 9 resorces a year isn´t a big deal. With high pm later in the war that´s alot of BPs?

Germany only loses the Swedish Resource Points if Norway is controlled by the Allies. It is unattractive to the CW to attack Norway early in the war for a lot of reasons. So Germany can have the Swedish resources without the hassle of invading Norway. The primary gain for Germany in taking out Norway is the single Norwegian resource point. But the downside is that the CW gets a lot of naval units for free.

[oscar72se]

In our WiF-group the german player never invades Norway. It's simply not worth it, CW gains too many transports and CPs to make it worthwhile. The only gain, as I see it, is that it if Norway is GE-occupied, the allies have a harder time gaining access to the Baltic Sea later in the game (assuming that Denmark is GE-occupied of course).

Making an invasion of Norway more worthwhile for the german is one of my most desired improvements of WiF [:)]

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The Germans attacked Norway to prevent Britain from getting access to Narvik and blockade the iron ore route. The Allies had plans to invade Norway for this reason, but also because they wanted to send troops via Norway to help Finland against Russia. The Allied units were prepared to go to Finland via Norway, but the plans were cancelled because Finland sued for peace in March 1940, thus ending the Winter War.
 
The German plans to invade Norway started as early as October 1939, but the final decision for the go ahead with Weserübung came after the Altmark affair 16th to 17th February 1940 where the British Navy raided a German supply ship and liberated 300 British prisoners. Germany knew then that Norway was incapable of defending its territory and felt it was necessary to occupy Norway before Britain decided to do it.  Another key benefit for the Germans would be to get excellent submarine bases in Norway and better air cover in the Norwegian Sea and North Sea.
 
If this should be interpreted into WIF it means that the British should have an incentive to help the Finns against Russia and a chance to blockade the iron ore from Kiruna / Gällivare to Germany via Narvik.  The German incentive to capture Norway before Britain should be to secure the iron ore route and obtaining excellent air and submarine bases.
 
I think the iron ore route part is already implemented in WIF, but does it help Germany a lot to get the air and naval bases in Norway?  Does it inflict more losses upon Allied convoys or can the Allies simply re-route their convoys?
 
I think the German incentive to occupy Norway will be higher if the British had a higher incentive to occupy Norway. Are there any rules about Britain helping Finland?  E. g. some positive US entry shifts?  I think this could be the way to "force" Germany to invade Norway.
 
 

[composer99]

Having Norway as a sub base is good if the British are running a convoy line along the Murmansk Run. Not really otherwise. It's also no better than the Low Countries or western France as an airbase to strike at England or the Faroes' Gap.

[bredsjomagnus]

Mayby the rule should be; Germany only get the Swedish ore if Narvik is Axis controlled (because of the CW mine fields along the coast that would prevent any shipment to Germany).
 
Then Germany has a bigger reason to take Norway.

[autarkis1967]

In all our games Germany usually gets Norway soemtimes by conquest sometimes because of allied aggression. We play with Politics in Flames though which has a dramatic affect on the game. If Germany attacks Norway its usually to close the Baltic. This is done instead of taking Denmark so that the US doesn't get the bases to move aircraft through Greenland and Iceland. Well at least not without reprecussions like attacking Denmark or taking the options.
 

[ezzler]

[quote]ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

Mayby the rule should be; Germany only get the Swedish ore if Narvik is Axis controlled (because of the CW mine fields along the coast that would prevent any shipment to Germany).

The simplest solutions are often the best!

[brian brian]

one incentive for the Germans to occupy Norway is to keep the CW from doing the same from 43 or even 42 onwards. aside from the special rule, once the British take over Norway, they can quite likely interdict the Swedish resources _every_ turn.

it's very hard for the Germans to get Norway without Allied troops showing up. there is one way to do it quite effectively - with a super-combined O-Chit, Japanese style; then all the shipping is overrun and the Germans might even capture a little bit of it (10%); 30% will sink; and 60% will escape but still face an interception roll by the Kriegsmarine. 15 BPs is a lot to pay for this though, and if the MTN unit sets up in one of the North Sea or Arctic ports the fun is over, but most Allied players won't see the O-Chit coming. I think it can be worthwhile on occasion during an Axis anti-USSR strategy. If you want to attack the UK though, it might make an interesting twist on that campaign for a player who spends a little on the Kriegsmarine and is willing to ship von Leeb to Trondheim to develop a good raiding base with secure supply connections through Oslo and the Baltic.

[IrishGuards]

Incentive to takeout Norway ..
Maybe a red factory ... to process the Heavy Water ...
World's largest hydro-electric plant .. [X(]
IDG

[oscar72se]

IMO, the problem isn't that GE lacks incentives to invade Norway, it is that CW gains far too much... If I recall correctly the CW get one extra TRS, 10 oil tankers and 3 CPs for a total of 23 BPs... IMHO, one extra resource point per turn compared to the CW gain doesn't justify an invasion of Norway unless there are very, very strong strategical considerations.

[Mitchellvitch]

I guess it would be arguable that the real war decision to invade Norway was perhaps a strategic error insofar as the resources could have been better used elsewhere, and that the game simply establishes the same situation.

[Orm]

The main German reason for attacking Norway was to do so before the Allies could occupy northern Norway. Quisling may have fueled the German fear of an Allied attack on Norway but he had no impact on the fighting in Norway.

It took Germany 2 months to conquer Norway. With Trondheim securely in German hands the situation for the Allies in Narvik was hopeless and a German reoccupation on Narvik was just a question of time due to the strong Luftwaffe presence.

German reported losses 5296 (KIA+WIA+MIA)
CW losses in Norway 1869 (KIA+WIA+MIA)
CW losses at sea about 2500
French and polish about 530
Norweigan about 1700

Before the war Sweden exported 10 million ton a year to germany. After the Norwegian occupation Sweden reduced the amount shipped after pressure from Churchill. Sweden did however improve the quality of the ore shipped to satisfy Germany as well.

According to Oxford compendium to WWII Sweden exported to Germany
1939 - 10.0 million tons iron ore
1940 - 8.4
1941 - 9.2
1942 - 7.9
1943 - 9.6
1944 - 3.4

After the battle of Narvik the port was destroyed and had a limited capacity to ship iron ore. The only other ore shipping ports available was Luleå and Oxelösund (Guaranteed icefree port). During the war Luleå port shipped out 24.2 million tons iron ore. Unfortunately I have no figures for Oxelösund .

The railroad Luleå - Kiruna - Narvik was finished 1902 and it was connected to the main railroad to Stockholm.

The iron ore export to Germany ended in oktober 1944 because Sweden felt that it could now defend itself successfully against a German invasion and could therefore stop the export safely. USA had also put increassing pressure on Sweden to stop the export.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

The main German reason for attacking Norway was to do so before the Allies could occupy northern Norway. Quisling may have fueled the German fear of an Allied attack on Norway but he had no impact on the fighting in Norway.

It took Germany 2 months to conquer Norway. With Trondheim securely in German hands the situation for the Allies in Narvik was hopeless and a German reoccupation on Narvik was just a question of time due to the strong Luftwaffe presence.

German reported losses 5296 (KIA+WIA+MIA)
CW losses in Norway 1869 (KIA+WIA+MIA)
CW losses at sea about 2500
French and polish about 530
Norweigan about 1700

Before the war Sweden exported 10 million ton a year to germany. After the Norwegian occupation Sweden reduced the amount shipped after pressure from Churchill. Sweden did however improve the quality of the ore shipped to satisfy Germany as well.

According to Oxford compendium to WWII Sweden exported to Germany
1939 - 10.0 million tons iron ore
1940 - 8.4
1941 - 9.2
1942 - 7.9
1943 - 9.6
1944 - 3.4

After the battle of Narvik the port was destroyed and had a limited capacity to ship iron ore. The only other ore shipping ports available was Luleå and Oxelösund (Guaranteed icefree port). During the war Luleå port shipped out 24.2 million tons iron ore. Unfortunately I have no figures for Oxelösund .

The railroad Luleå - Kiruna - Narvik was finished 1902 and it was connected to the main railroad to Stockholm.

The iron ore export to Germany ended in oktober 1944 because Sweden felt that it could now defend itself successfully against a German invasion and could therefore stop the export safely. USA had also put increassing pressure on Sweden to stop the export.

Welcome to the forum. Thank you for your post.

[Manic Inertia]

Thanks for all the information guys. I was especially intrigued by the idea of a german invasion of Norway instead of Denmark, to retard US air units transiting via Greenland/Iceland - I'll have to think about that some more.
 
On the other hand, I'm less impressed by Orm's assertion that "a german reoccupation of Narvik was just a matter of time due to the strong luftwaffe presence" .. even if this is historically true, how could german land based air units threaten Narvik in WiF? There's nowhere nearby for them to fly from: it's all mountain hexes. Surely a CW corps and FTR sitting in Narvik whilst tracing supply back across the North Sea would be almost impossible for Germany to eject, wouldn't they? [&:]