Aren't Sho and Zui's flight deck armor a little bit... overrated?!

[Fishbed]

Goddam Shokaku received already a 1000 pounder a week ago. She just got 5 more in the face, and all I seem to have there is fire... She's not even said to be "heavily damaged" - half the bombs didn't even got through the armor

Day Air attack on TF at 64,98

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 49

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 8 destroyed, 31 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 5, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet

The 1000 pounder which hit Zuikaku didn't penetrate either... Did anyone cast a spell on me or what?! [&:][:(]

[tanksone]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Goddam Shokaku received already a 1000 pounder a week ago. She just got 5 more in the face, and all I seem to have there is fire... She's not even said to be "heavily damaged" - half the bombs didn't even got through the armor

Day Air attack on TF at 64,98

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 49

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged



Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 8 destroyed, 31 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 5, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet

The 1000 pounder which hit Zuikaku didn't penetrate either... Did anyone cast a spell on me or what?! [&:][:(]

Hi, thats a nice start but I've found you need torpedoes to finish the job on them (they sure are tough nuts to crack). In the battle my opponet and I just had (6/42), Soryu ate 3x 1000lber and sank. I still don't know if I've sank either Shok or Zuik.....fog of war is killing me [:D].


Day Air attack on TF at 76,109

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 82

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3
SBD Dauntless x 34
TBD Devastator x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 3 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 28 destroyed
TBD Devastator: 12 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 76,109

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 82

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 13
F4F-4 Wildcat x 22
SBD Dauntless x 102
TBD Devastator x 45

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 14 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 11 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 19 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 29 destroyed, 37 damaged
TBD Devastator: 10 destroyed, 24 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CA Furutaka
CA Kinugasa
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CA Aoba
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
8 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
5 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
8 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
7 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 76,109

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 5
SBD Dauntless x 34
TBD Devastator x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
SBD Dauntless: 16 destroyed, 2 damaged
TBD Devastator: 7 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBD Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet

[Feinder]

Was she at range 3 or 4?

Range 3 = 1000#
Range 4 = 500#

It "feels" like she was at range 4, that would be 500# bombs which would -NOT- penetrate.  If she was hit at range 3 or less by 5x 1000# bombs, yes, I'd very surprised why she's not "heavily damaged" or dead outright.  It's possible that you got an in-ordinate amout of FoW hits (you can tell these in combat by seeing the "deck armor penetration" message, with no damage type message following (like "casualties from deck explosion" or whatever).

Was your attack was at range 4?

And while I'm thinking on it, the game will also occasionally throw a few bombs vs. the belt. If this was the case, your 1000# bombs will NOT penetrate Shok/Zui belt armor (which would also explain your lack of damage).

-F-

[Fishbed]

Hi, thats a nice start

Nope it isn't at all!!!

Yeah ok I know I need more than bombs to send them to the bottom for good, but I didn't need that - I just wanted them to be out of order the next days, and still, Zuikaku, even with 5 (+1) 1000 pounders in da face still sends waves of Kates afterwards, while my defeated carriers, while doing their job well for the second time, are limping away from the battlefield. Man, those hangar crew must be mistaking hand grenades for 1000 pound bombs.
Agains the IA that would be funny. Against a human opponent, it's dramatic. He also doesn't understand how he can still be alive and well after that, while Yamato learnt it the hard way some days ago with 15+ 500 Lbs that wrecked the deck to pieces...

Well I guess I am just plain unlucky, must have got a minimum damages dice roll 6 times in a row (!!!!) but still that's SOOO frustrating [:@]

[Fishbed]

Was she at range 3 or 4?

Range 3 = 1000#
Range 4 = 500#

It "feels" like she was at range 4, that would be 500# bombs which would -NOT- penetrate. If she was hit at range 3 or less by 5x 1000# bombs, yes, I'd very surprised why she's not "heavily damaged" or dead outright. It's possible that you got an in-ordinate amout of FoW hits (you can tell these in combat by seeing the "deck armor penetration" message, with no damage type message following (like "casualties from deck explosion" or whatever).

Was your attack was at range 4?

And while I'm thinking on it, the game will also occasionally throw a few bombs vs. the belt. If this was the case, your 1000# bombs will NOT penetrate Shok/Zui belt armor (which would also explain your lack of damage).

Well the Animated CR mentionned very clearly 1000 pounders - that's the very reason why I feel so frustrated. If they were 500 lbs, I could have TRIED to understand the result, but this... [:(]

And yes indeed some bombs were thrown against the belt armor...

[tanksone]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Hi, thats a nice start

Nope it isn't at all!!!

Yeah ok I know I need more than bombs to send them to the bottom for good, but I didn't need that - I just wanted them to be out of order the next days, and still, Zuikaku, even with 5 (+1) 1000 pounders in da face still sends waves of Kates afterwards, while my defeated carriers, while doing their job well for the second time, are limping away from the battlefield. Man, those hangar crew must be mistaking hand grenades for 1000 pound bombs.
Agains the IA that would be funny. Against a human opponent, it's dramatic. He also doesn't understand how he can still be alive and well after that, while Yamato learnt it the hard way some days ago with 15+ 500 Lbs that wrecked the deck to pieces...

Well I guess I am just plain unlucky, must have got a minimum damages dice roll 6 times in a row (!!!!) but still that's SOOO frustrating [:@]

Hi, sorry if that came across as being sarcastic...was just trying to be optimistic... I lost 3 CVs in my battle....

[Fishbed]

Nope don't worry I saw no offense at all [:)]

(god I'd love to have even 3 carriers to lose)

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Hi, thats a nice start

Nope it isn't at all!!!

Yeah ok I know I need more than bombs to send them to the bottom for good, but I didn't need that - I just wanted them to be out of order the next days, and still, Zuikaku, even with 5 (+1) 1000 pounders in da face still sends waves of Kates afterwards, while my defeated carriers, while doing their job well for the second time, are limping away from the battlefield. Man, those hangar crew must be mistaking hand grenades for 1000 pound bombs.
Agains the IA that would be funny. Against a human opponent, it's dramatic. He also doesn't understand how he can still be alive and well after that, while Yamato learnt it the hard way some days ago with 15+ 500 Lbs that wrecked the deck to pieces...

Well I guess I am just plain unlucky, must have got a minimum damages dice roll 6 times in a row (!!!!) but still that's SOOO frustrating [:@]

iirc - many of the IJN ships are armored more than they were in reality in STOCK WITP, as are some Allied ships (notably the Boise)...

[jwilkerson]

Actually, in the game all carriers have their main armored deck armor as their armor. Only problem is most Japanese and American carriers had unarmored flight decks 1+ decks higher up than the armored deck. So in the game the armored deck protects the flight deck, even though it would not in real life.

But the problem exists for both sides, not one side but not the other.

Some scenario designers have altered this.

[Fishbed]

But the problem exists for both sides, not one side but not the other.

Yep - but the AP nature of the 250kg IJN bomb must help somehow - although it makes less damage when it penetrates, it nearly always DOES penetrate.
Although, until today, I thought that 1000 pounders would always penetrate too [:D] [:(]

Well, no luck... Gonna get the guys at Noumea check the fuses, cuz the pilots didn't like that much the sight of their bombs bouncing off Japanese flight decks [:-] [;)]

[Rainerle]

1000 pd bombs always penetrate the flight deck of said carriers. So what you have here is probably what Feinder said
FoW hits (i.e. no hits at all but reported to be so)
or belt hits (which will not be penetrated)
or hits which roll a very low damage.

[Fishbed]

So what you have here is probably what Feinder said
FoW hits (i.e. no hits at all but reported to be so)
or belt hits (which will not be penetrated)
or hits which roll a very low damage.

Yes. That's why Im talking about being plainly unlucky...
Some hits penetrated, though. They just didn't do much.

Man who did I offend lately to deserve such a disgrace in a PBEM game? [&o]
Sounds like some higher power wanted to punish me for something. Worshipping the wrong god maybe.

I knew I shouldn't have started reading Hoepner's AARs, this is giving me bad karma [:'(]

[tigercub]

The shokaku & Zuikaku from my info they had up to 6.75 inch deck armor and 8.5 inch main armor may have some thing to do with how they survived so many battles in WW2, Fire being the main problem with ships.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Actually, in the game all carriers have their main armored deck armor as their armor. Only problem is most Japanese and American carriers had unarmored flight decks 1+ decks higher up than the armored deck. So in the game the armored deck protects the flight deck, even though it would not in real life.

But the problem exists for both sides, not one side but not the other.

Some scenario designers have altered this.

Ayup. Wood decked carriers beware. [:)]

[Dili]

I had one of Sho's get more than 20 hits of 500lb bombs and get away almost like nothing had happened.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Goddam Shokaku received already a 1000 pounder a week ago. She just got 5 more in the face, and all I seem to have there is fire... She's not even said to be "heavily damaged" - half the bombs didn't even got through the armor

Day Air attack on TF at 64,98

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 49

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 8 destroyed, 31 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 5, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet

4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet

The 1000 pounder which hit Zuikaku didn't penetrate either... Did anyone cast a spell on me or what?! [&:][:(]

1000lb bombs penetrate the deck armor of Zuikaku but not the BELT armor...

but you surely do NOT need torps to sink a carrier, better say IJN carriers. They are normally so fragile that one, two or three 1000 lb bombs are enough to sink them if they aren´t near (means within 3 or 4 turns) of a major port. Happened to me too often already...

[John Lansford]

I sank Hiyo with 20 500 lb bombs, but then she was a conversion and had no armor anyway to speak of.  I think I stacked 500 lb bombs on Shokaku's flight deck until she sank, though.  Zuikaku sank quite nicely under a hail of 1000 lb bombs early in my 1942 campaign, and Junyo is definitely not immune to North Carolina's 16" guns...

Now eagerly awaiting the commissioning of Taiho...

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: tigercub

The shokaku & Zuikaku from my info they had up to 6.75 inch deck armor and 8.5 inch main armor may have some thing to do with how they survived so many battles in WW2, Fire being the main problem with ships.

Yeah sure, but I wasn't asking for a fire - I was just asking for this:



[8D] [:(]

[Feinder]

This brings up an interesting question tho, for AE, has the damage model been tweaked at all?  I know there are more types of damge (engines, heavy sys, etc).  But is it still an all-or-nothing sort of thing?  Do near misses still go against the belt, and therefore do (pretty much) nothing - the historical situation on Akagi would inidcate that near misses are certainly *not* something shrug off.
 
-F-

[Iridium]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

This brings up an interesting question tho, for AE, has the damage model been tweaked at all?  I know there are more types of damge (engines, heavy sys, etc).  But is it still an all-or-nothing sort of thing?  Do near misses still go against the belt, and therefore do (pretty much) nothing - the historical situation on Akagi would inidcate that near misses are certainly *not* something shrug off.

-F-

Indeed, near misses can cause major issues for ships. However, how does one differentiate a near miss from a complete miss in game? I'm not sure it's even possible within the current game engine.