"Secrets of the Dead"

[decaro]

Despite the lurid title, this is a PBS series that is really quite good; the next installment is titled "Dogfight over Guadalcanal" and features the following:

"Although it was just one tiny skirmish in a much greater war, the dogfight between Pug Southerland and Saburo Sakai illustrated many of the strategic and technological factors that eventually determined the outcome of the war. But important questions about that encounter have remained unanswered until now. Why had Southerland failed to fire when he gained a brief advantage over Sakai? And had Sakai, an ace who finished the war with 64 kills to his credit, really aimed at Southerland's engine to give him a chance to bail out?

An expedition to the wreck site of Southerland's plane, and a forensic investigation into the details of the famous air battle answer these questions and more in Dogfight Over Guadalcanal."

Link to webpage at: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previou ... index.html

Hopefully everyone can catch this show.

[anarchyintheuk]

Think that was on a couple of days ago. Great show.

I had forgotten how badly wounded Sakai was. Kinda amazing that he made it back to Rabaul.

[bigbaba]

yes, the story about sakai and southerland is a great one.

if you are intrested in pilots tells about the air battle over guadalcanal, this may be intresting for you:

http://de.youtube.com/results?search_qu ... type=&aq=f

here you can find a lot of episodes from the histoy channels "dogfight" series.

[decaro]

This show was more about the different cultural mindsets that developed two very different aircraft that dueled over the 'Canal.

"The Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat piloted by Pug Southerland was a very different aircraft. Aviation historian Barrett Tillman calls it a "broadsword" in comparison to the "rapier"-like Zero. While the heavier Wildcat couldn't match the Zero's turning capabilities, climbing speed or range, it made up for its deficiencies with raw power (a 1,200-horsepower engine), superior diving speed, and an amazing ability to withstand punishment.

While the Zero's designers at Mitsubishi and Nakajima had concentrated on building a purely offensive weapon with little consideration for the pilot's safety, the heavily armored Wildcat was designed to protect the pilot at all costs. It had a bulletproof windscreen and thick steel reinforcing plates behind the pilot -- the armor that had so surprised Saburo Sakai when his blazing machine guns had such little effect on Southerland's Wildcat during their battle."

We've discussed these same arguments over and over on these forums.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

... I had forgotten how badly wounded Sakai was. Kinda amazing that he made it back to Rabaul.

I'll say it was amazing, considering the following:

" .... shortly after Sakai shot down Pug, the limitations of his airplane were put clearly on display with devastating consequences when he was shot by a tail gunner from an American bomber. The tail gunner's .30 caliber bullet pierced the Zero's windshield and went through Sakai's eye and brain before exiting on the other side of his skull. If his Zero had been equipped with bulletproof glass, Sakai would likely have escaped unharmed.

Wounded and only semi-conscious, Sakai had little chance of surviving. But his skill -- and the extreme range of the lightweight Zero -- allowed him to fly all the way back to Rabaul with the little fuel he had remaining. Had he been flying any other contemporary fighter, he almost certainly would have perished. To this day, his flight is considered one of the most amazing feats in aviation history, and if not for his trusty Zero, none would ever have heard his account of the famous dogfight."

Here's the link for the above and more "clues and evidence": http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previou ... clues.html

[ILCK]

The Zero was an amazing weapon as long as it was facing inferior machines flown by inferior pilots and as soon as that changed it was a death sentence for most of its pilots because of it total lack of any armor made it hyperfragile. 

[decaro]

I would say the Zero was agile, but not "hyperfragile."

"The plane's lightweight airframe and skin, made of high-tech duralumin alloy (aluminum alloyed with copper, manganese, and magnesium), gave the Zero its truly remarkable fuel efficiency, operating range, and agility. And the Zero's armaments were impressive: two 7.7 mm machine guns, along with two 20 mm cannons. Together, the four guns were a deadly combination that gave the pilots multiple options when they engaged."

The Zero could deliver a quick punch, it just wasn't made to take a pounding in return.

[tocaff]

Ammo limitations and the general poor quality for the Zero's 20mm hurt it.

[Stele]

This dogfight is a classic one on one, but I personally think him going up against 12 (or maybe 15) Hellcats near Iwo Jima was more impressive.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

I would say the Zero was agile, but not "hyperfragile."

The Zero could deliver a quick punch, it just wasn't made to take a pounding in return.

Under fire it had very low survivability, it was a great airframe for doing turns and loops but not for absorbing any punishment.

[tocaff]

Face it for 1941-42 the Zero was a great plane in the right hands and from 1943 on it suffered against new aircraft designs and the poor pilots flying it.
 
The lesson learned and relearned is that there is no replacement for good training of pilots and that their training really never stops.

[Ike99]

Face it for 1941-42 the Zero was a great plane in the right hands and from 1943 on it suffered against new aircraft designs and the poor pilots flying it.

Very nice IL2 Pacific Fighters Video on the Zero and Wildcat.

Come with Me

[bigbaba]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Face it for 1941-42 the Zero was a great plane in the right hands and from 1943 on it suffered against new aircraft designs and the poor pilots flying it.

The lesson learned and relearned is that there is no replacement for good training of pilots and that their training really never stops.

thats very true. it was just stupid to put such skillfull fighter pilots in such cparry flying coffins. espacialy with the wrong japanese pilot training, where the best pilots remained on the front instead of train new pilots.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

This show was more about the different cultural mindsets that developed two very different aircraft that dueled over the 'Canal.

"The Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat piloted by Pug Southerland was a very different aircraft. Aviation historian Barrett Tillman calls it a "broadsword" in comparison to the "rapier"-like Zero. While the heavier Wildcat couldn't match the Zero's turning capabilities, climbing speed or range, it made up for its deficiencies with raw power (a 1,200-horsepower engine), superior diving speed, and an amazing ability to withstand punishment.

While the Zero's designers at Mitsubishi and Nakajima had concentrated on building a purely offensive weapon with little consideration for the pilot's safety, the heavily armored Wildcat was designed to protect the pilot at all costs. It had a bulletproof windscreen and thick steel reinforcing plates behind the pilot -- the armor that had so surprised Saburo Sakai when his blazing machine guns had such little effect on Southerland's Wildcat during their battle."

We've discussed these same arguments over and over on these forums.

That really does sum it up. Great episode and two great warriors, BTW