One conclusion about air attacks into Russia

[el cid again]

I asked for - and got - some tech support on the report that in Russian Passive scenarios Japan cannot get air attacks
to go into Russia. While reported as an AE issue - it is likely to be a general issue. However, it is not a known problem.
Further - Matrix says some AARs have reported no problems with early attacks into Russia. But apparently there are
very few Russian Passive games at all.

Thinking about this I came to an unexpected conclusion: our original discussions about this being possibly related to hex locations
must be off track. A reported datum is that Russian ports coded French can be attacked by air. IF it was a hex location issue - the
national coding would not help. So - it isn't a national coding issue.

I am running a test to see what can be seen. But there are lots of reasons air strikes don't go - "tests" they are called in Matrix talk.
If the weather is bad, if the supplies are insufficient, the list is probably not entirely known - and so there are lots of possibilities to
investigate.

[n01487477]

I am running a test to see what can be seen. But there are lots of reasons air strikes don't go - "tests" they are called in Matrix talk.
If the weather is bad, if the supplies are insufficient, the list is probably not entirely known - and so there are lots of possibilities to
investigate.

I glad you are taking this further, but I can assure you this is not the case, I've tried from CV's, Japan, Mongolia,Kwantang,Russia ... all had good leaders, supplies, etc On the same turn from the same base, I've been able to attack Russian airfields assigned French.

Thinking about this I came to an unexpected conclusion: our original discussions about this being possibly related to hex locations must be off track. A reported datum is that Russian ports coded French can be attacked by air. IF it was a hex location issue - the national coding would not help. So - it isn't a national coding issue.

I'm unsure how you came to this conclusion, unless it is in definition. As I said I can attack Russian ports coded French, And I've recreated the scenario assigning other places French and then they attack ... therefore isn't it a national coding issue ?

Further - Matrix says some AARs have reported no problems with early attacks into Russia. But apparently there are very few Russian Passive games at all.

I'd like to see these AAR's, what mod it was & whether Soviets were set active in the mod. I don't believe there is a problem when Soviets are activated normally, just when the mod is created with Soviets active from the get-go.

If this is just my problem, then I will let it go, but I've looked at some other AAR's and nothing from what I can see with modded games with SOVIETS ACTIVE set in the scenario editor, are working.

[Nomad]

In PzB vs Andy Mac game the Russians where activated due to date. PzB was not able to attack any russian units, bases etc. This was a stock game.
I will have to go back and see what problems they had.

Cid, the question of a hex had to do with the proper activation of the russians, not where they could be attacked.

[HerzKaraya]

I reported this bug a long time ago in the forums:
tm.asp?m=1460438&mpage=1&key=&#1460438
and even before that on another thread.

If Russians are set to not active at start, and later activated via the hex trigger or garrison requirements, everything is fine - but, if you set them as active from the beginning, the Japanese can not harm them in any way! You may have a 99 value leader, the clearest of skies and 999999 supllies and 99 exp, 99 mor squadrons - they just refuse to bomb but the Russian on the other hand can bomb you.
In my mod I "fixed" this setting the Russians as Chinese....
Hopefully AE will get it right!

[n01487477]

Thanks Bubi for backing up my assertion ...
I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. I've reported it here fb.asp?m=1854479

AND furthermore if Matrix is doing testing and verification by looking at AAR's then I'm dumbfounded ...

[JeffroK]

AND furthermore if Matrix is doing testing and verification by looking at AAR's then I'm dumbfounded ...

Given some of the errors in vanilla WITP, I'd be surprised that Matrix did any testing.
 
Keep searching, the truth is out there!

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Thinking about this I came to an unexpected conclusion: our original discussions about this being possibly related to hex locations must be off track. A reported datum is that Russian ports coded French can be attacked by air. IF it was a hex location issue - the national coding would not help. So - it isn't a national coding issue.

I'm unsure how you came to this conclusion, unless it is in definition. As I said I can attack Russian ports coded French, And I've recreated the scenario assigning other places French and then they attack ... therefore isn't it a national coding issue ?

Actually I said it wrong: it isnt a HEX LOCATION issue. It is purely a national coding issue. The idea that the borders of Russia - or the hexes in Russia - were the issue - is wrong. Instead - it is a problem when bases in Russia are called Russian national - and when the game is Russian Active.

Which means we just defined a workaround: IF this is a problem AND IF Matrix won't fix it (I bet they will - it would impact AE) THEN we can call Russian ports French - which I did when they refused to service ships. Matrix changed that - so I changed back - but AE kept at least some of the French ports.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bubi Hartmann

I reported this bug a long time ago in the forums:
tm.asp?m=1460438&mpage=1&key=?
and even before that on another thread.

If Russians are set to not active at start, and later activated via the hex trigger or garrison requirements, everything is fine - but, if you set them as active from the beginning, the Japanese can not harm them in any way! You may have a 99 value leader, the clearest of skies and 999999 supllies and 99 exp, 99 mor squadrons - they just refuse to bomb but the Russian on the other hand can bomb you.
In my mod I "fixed" this setting the Russians as Chinese....
Hopefully AE will get it right!

I regret to say I regard this as confirmation of the problem. Also that it is a bad indicator the problem won't be fixed by Matrix - at least not if it was noticed. It makes no sense to me how such a major game option ever got released unable to work - what is the point of the setting? even for version 1.0

But maybe the need to address it for AE will make it easy to fold into the final WITP update?

However - I am going to issue files with a workaround if my test also confirms this assessment - as I now expect will be the case. I find clearly focused techncial statements by Forum members usually are correct. As a long time field engineer and tech support guy I learned to listen to the users - they know what they see.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

AND furthermore if Matrix is doing testing and verification by looking at AAR's then I'm dumbfounded ...

Given some of the errors in vanilla WITP, I'd be surprised that Matrix did any testing.

Keep searching, the truth is out there!

In defense of Matrix -

it costs money to test - usually - unless you can harness free labor - which player testing more or less is

and if Matrix had not found a way to get a product this complex to market with the money available, we would not
have anything to be disappointed with in the first place.

There are lots of better systems in the world - and not one of them we can use - because they are not marketed successfully.

Iti s not a case there is no testing - it is rather that there is very little testing in proportion to the complexity of the program.
The data was poorly researched - and AE is changing that in important respects - because detail research takes too much time if you are paying for it to get entered. The program was set up for lots of possibilities - not all of which got implemented - probably because they ran out of time and money (see for example certain undefined devices, nations, etc - called hooks by programmers - things that might be used but are not developed and just hang there). Matrix actually did cavalry art - and never used it - but they told Andrew and Cobra and I how to use it if we wanted to. They developed drop tanks - and didn't use them either. Probably there are lots of things like that.

This is the finest effort of its kind in history. It is getting better. You cannot look at it closely and not become aware of its limits.
But it was ambitious - considering when it was done - very ambitious.

Normally identifying a problem is the main thing to solving it. This one can be solved - by us - if need be. We just have to edit Russians cities into some other nation. Since France is so little used - I recommend that.

[JeffroK]

Gday Sid,
 
Maybe if this was Matrix's first effort.
 
But with the time spent on Pacific War &  UV they should have been a lot closer when WITP was fist released.
 
I'm suprised at maybe anther RHS version in the pipeline, surley RHSAE will be a priority!

[el cid again]

I confirm this problem is real. It is not date dependent or scenario dependent or mod dependent.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Gday Sid,

Maybe if this was Matrix's first effort.

But with the time spent on Pacific War &  UV they should have been a lot closer when WITP was fist released.

I'm suprised at maybe anther RHS version in the pipeline, surley RHSAE will be a priority!

Not in a playable sense. Those who like RHS methodologies will have to wait 6 - 12 months - if things go well - after AE is released.
And in the beginning I thought RHS would only need 2 months of work - instead of 3 years.

There is a vast amount of data involved. We need to add locations, air units, ships, land units, devices. Tens of thousands of fields.

I also wish to leave WITP files as functional as possible. And as long as they are actively used- we will support them.

[n01487477]

Lastly Cid,
I see that you are thinking about changing the Bases to Chinese, that is a good workaround, but remember you will have to do this for the Russian troops & aircraft too & their reinforcements if you want to be able to launch air attacks on them. I think others as well as myself have mentioned and tested this.

If the scenario was set to Russian Inactive and a HR put in place which allowed the Japanese to activate the Hex and then withdraw (Day 1), then this would be another solution.

I agree that the scenario editor should remove the option, if it doesn't work as it is supposed to, and as my thread for support has been largely unanswered ... well maybe we will be left to fend for ourselves.

Cheers
Damian

[el cid again]

Matrix didn't know. Not in the functional, institutional sense. Now they know - and they care. I have had a series of exchanges in the last 24 hours - they are defining the problem. Since it applies to AE it is logical they care. I expect this to be part of the package of changes at some point. But I don't know when that is.

Reports from players and also from Nemo indicate that attacks could be made on certain locations coded French. I hope you are not right about units needing such coding: the Soviet code has a modifier associated with it - and since we don't know what that is - or what others are - we cannot pick a good one blind. Further - it will look wrong if they cannot be Russian. I was about to issue the update - but now I wlll play a test to see if this is true? But in several games I am playing I am successfully attacking a Soviet unit - the First Mongol Cavalry (there is a similar named unit on the other side - and these two are fighting on the ground too - makes for interesting reports).

Air strikes can go in on Soviet bases in Mongolia - see Tomsag. So maybe I can turn them back into Soviet.

The thing that may happen with changing a base nation is that it won't cooperate as well with units of a different nation. Not sure how that is implemented - or even that it is implemented - but it would not surprise me.

[Nemo121]

Reports from players and also from Nemo indicate that attacks could be made on certain locations coded French.

This is incorrect. I stated that it was possible to attack Soviet COASTAL bases. I never mentioned anything about them being French or not so this attribution is incorrect as is the assertion it supports. You CAN attack bases which are Soviet but only if they are coastal.

[el cid again]

But see the Master Chief Cid thread and you will find your users reported it. And you did write you could attack ports - so I beleived this was simply confirmation from you. Further - I cannot attack ports coded Russian - so I think you may be confused about that. This is mod independent - a code issue.

[el cid again]

This is both right and wrong: air units - and naval units too - are fine. Ground units are a problem - but only inside the USSR. You CAN attack them OUTSIDE the USSR. However - since they might move to Russia - all Soviet ground units should be recoded. Not nice.

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Lastly Cid,
I see that you are thinking about changing the Bases to Chinese, that is a good workaround, but remember you will have to do this for the Russian troops & aircraft too & their reinforcements if you want to be able to launch air attacks on them. I think others as well as myself have mentioned and tested this.

If the scenario was set to Russian Inactive and a HR put in place which allowed the Japanese to activate the Hex and then withdraw (Day 1), then this would be another solution.

I agree that the scenario editor should remove the option, if it doesn't work as it is supposed to, and as my thread for support has been largely unanswered ... well maybe we will be left to fend for ourselves.

Cheers
Damian

[el cid again]

The Soviet border definition in stock, supplied by Matrix:

{63,33},{64,32},{65,32},{66,31},{66,32},{67,32},
{67,31},{68,31},{69,30},{69,29},{70,28},
{70,27},{70,26},{69,26},{68,25},{69,24},
{69,23},{70,22},{69,21},{69,20},{68,20},
{67,19},{66,19},{65,19},{64,19},{64,20},
{63,19},{62,19},{61,19},{61,20},{60,21},
{61,22},{59,21},{59,20},{58,19},{57,19},
{56,19},{55,19},{55,20},{54,21},{53,21},
{53,20},{52,19},{52,18},{51,17},{51,16},
{50,15},{50,14},{49,13},{50,12},{49,11},
{49,10},{48,9},{49,8},{49,7},{49,6},
{49,5},{50,5},{51,4},{51,3},{52,2},
{52,1},{83,31},{84,31}

[Nemo121]

I can attack Soviet coastal bases no problem. I've hit every Soviet coastal base but cannot hit any inland ones. This is with Soviets active from Day 1.

[el cid again]

This datum is at variance with both reports and tests. However, I have the SAME report on the other side - Soviet bases are not an issue
in Mongolia.

Can you also target land units per se in those bases?

It is possible they are not in the Soviet box - however that is defined.