My thoughts on 1.03 (w/ a few screenhots)

[RayKinStL]

Well I just finished my first full playthrough of the Beta for 1.03. It is hard to be objective about my thoughts because I am not sure whether this version played more stable or if the things that used to give me trouble are now understandable and no longer a hindrance. There were definitely a few bugs I had run across in older versions that I noticed were properly fixed. In fact, in my total game, I only had one error message. I have 3 screenshots, and will put one of each in 3 follow up posts. While I still think there are a lot of things about the interface that I find unintuitive, it does play a bit easier once you get a feel for it. There are many little nuances and annoyances I'd love to see changed, but that's a subject for another thread.

So when I started the game, things seemed very good. As GB, I immediately made a run at Sweden and Denmark, and after returning home, I built my army up. I had offered alliances to everyone, and everyone but Turkey eventually took me up on it. With my army full, I began to mobilize forces for a SPanish DOW and invasion. It was in the process of moving my piddly 5 ship transport fleet that the AI made its first major stupid screw up. As the transport fleet cruised by, the Frech chose to intercept and managed to capture and destroy my transport fleet (whoopdee doo!). The result of this, however, was to pull his fleet out into open ocean waters, and I pounced immediately next turn, sending everything I had at the now vulnerable French fleet. The resulting 7 (with the +1 modifier) was disasterous, but the Holland fleet bore the majority of the losses. I then decided to try something, and with my full stack, i moved back and forth between the two sea areas that the retreat port the French retreated to was sharing. I then noticed that the French attempted to intercept everytime! This of course means we need an AI tweak that would allow the computer when to decide to intercept, andwhen to let the ships just pass them by. It took almost 2 full turns of moving back and forth before the French rolled a 1 (the only number that allowed a succesful interception), and they engaged in a sea battle that all but wiped out their navy. A port raid a few turns later, and the French were done. So here I was a little over a year in, and I had destroyed the entire French Navy at the cost of about 20-30 light ships.

I now moved my attention to the Spanish, who were sitting with all his forces in Lisbon, doing absolutely nothing. In fact Spain even allowed Austria to capture Morocco?!?!?! With his ships in Cadiz, I dropped off a full British army, and took Cadiz leaving the Spanish fleet dead in the water. I now basically controlled the seas, and at the cost of nothing more than 40 of my light ships TOTAL (I attacked Spain in port and immediately recovered 3 of the 4 PPs I lost for the DOW). I then picked up my army and decided to see what would happen if I tried to attack the Spanish amry which obviously had numbers on me. Some good rolls pushed the Spanish out of Portugal, and my high morale allowed me to survive long enough to secure Portugal and receive reinforcements (as well as pick up some garrisons from GB and ship them down). I managed to survive the 3-4 battles that ensued, winning 2 and drawing the other two. The fifth battle saw a massive Outflank destroy the Spanish forces, and the march to Madrid and the resulting unconditional surrender were far too easy.

Now one asks what was going on while I was duking it out in Spain. Well after a flurry of activity in the first year, including numerous DOWS and alliances, I noticed the computer wasnt doing much. As someone else noticed, Prussia was being super agressive with her DOWs and grabbed a large chunk of real estate in central Europe, and the French just let it happen. In fact, the French stood in almost the same spot the whole game, with one monster stack that I never saw move (see the second screenshot). In fact, after the crazy start, I never saw another DOW the rest of the game (nor a surrender) from any other AI player. Once all the minor countries were occupied, it was like all the central European countries got bored and just decided to sit still the rest of the game and do nothing. This is obviously an AI tweak that needs to be addressed. The French got rolled earlier on in the territory war and then were content to just sit in the middle with a monster stack and do nothing.

So for a while I piddled around in North Africa, snapping up some minors, including Naples, while stealing Rome from France. With an excellen springboard to Turkey, and my full forces in the Meditterean, I decided to give it a go. With his forces spread all over, the march on COnstantinople was easy, as most of his troops were near Egypt for some reason (even despite an ongoing war with Russia in which I never really saw either side get the least bit aggresive. This is where the game got really annoying. With the Turkish capital occupied, and a quick fall into the fiaco zone, the Turkish simply refused to give me a surrender. And their only attempt to remove me from their capital involved a couple worthless attacks from some cavalry corps (yearly regenerating ones, I guess?) whihc barely lasted the first roll of a battle. I sat in the Turkish capital for over THREE YEARS waiting for my surrender. Not only did he refuse to give it, he refused to mobilize any of his forces in Egypt or on his northern border to try to remove me. In the third screenshot you can clealy see a broken Turkey with all my troops in his capital. I sat like this for literally 3 years, just buying infantry for garrisons (I had 36 MP after a +2 economic manipulation). You can see by my gold that my reserves just kept going up, and this included a few turns of some expensive ship builds (simply cause I had nothign better to do). Sadly, I never got my surrender, winning on VPs before he ever threw in the towel. I hope this is jsut an AI tweak that needs fixing (Turkey would surrender in the last version when it was called for), and not indicative that Turkey will act like a sore loser who refuses to give a surrender when it is so obviously called for.

Well if you read all this, I applaud you. Sorry it's so long. I really feel like maybe we are moving in the right direction, but it seems like there is a step backwards after the two we take forwards. The AI INITIALLY was certainly more intelligible, and maybe sound decisions, but this was quickly marred but extremem inactivity. It's almost as if the answer to removing the dumb single corps attacks was to remove the AIs inclination to attack all together! I applaud you on your efforts Marshall, and I know you are trying hard, but we definitely still have a long long LONG way to go. If the AI had played with teh same fervor and pace it showed in the first 6-12 months, I truly believe the game would have been very exciting and dynamic. Instead it turned into a lethargic episode of auto-foraging with unused movement points.

So has anyone else played the computer? What were your experiences? Did you notice things different or contrary to what I observed?

[RayKinStL]

Here is the only error message I got. I didnt start getting it till the last couple of years, and it would only do it right before an economic phase was about to start...

[RayKinStL]

Here is the mega stack France had that never moved from this spot once it was built up. He never contested for any of that Italian territory, and jsut to the north (unpictured) was mostly dominated by Prussia. This is literally how Europe looked the WHOLE game!!!

[RayKinStL]

Lastly, here is a screenshot showing all my forces in Turkey after about 2 years of not moving and the Turkish reluctance to give me their surrender despite the fact that they are at the bottom of the fiasco zone....

[Erik Rutins]

Thanks Ray, we know there's more to do and we very much appreciate the detailed feedback which will help us focus our efforts.

[ndrose]

My guess is that Turkey's not surrendering because it can still raise feudal corps--but not counterattacking because it has no money for supply. You're right--it's needs some tweaking there.

In 1.02 Turkey didn't always surrender appropriately, though--and never, ever fought back. In one game, I invaded Turkey with a single Spanish corps (just to see what would happen). After taking Constantinople, I had to send it around the Balkans besieging and dropping factors into provincial capitals. The Turkish army was...somewhere...but they never bothered my Pilgrim Army. Finally with most of its capitals occupied Turkey surrendered.

I'm curious to try a 1.03 game as Russia and see how Turkey does. Money and supply are the big challenge for a human player of Turkey, and may be too hard for the AI so far. In 1.02 the AI (as every country) would forage lots of corps to death; it doesn't seem to do that now, so that's a step in the right direction.

[delatbabel]

Most of the AI fixes in this beta are economic, political, and reducing some of the general bone-headedness.

The AI will now actually conserve money for supply so that it doesn't forage its troops to death, and will actually build up a stack that makes it harder to attack. I found it actually very easy in 1.02 to beat France AI playing Prussia, now it's very difficult.

The tactical and strategic decisions aren't all there yet, expect the AI to do something much more impressive with its big stacks in future betas and releases.

[delatbabel]

I certainly haven't seen the issue where Turkey completely refuses to surrender. Do you have a save game for that?

[RayKinStL]

Sorry, I dont.  I played a second game as France and after beating Prussia and Austria, I marched across his land to Constantinople.  After 5 turns of being in Constantinople with no surrender, I began devouring other cities, and after occupying about 5-6 other cities I finally got a surrender.  It sure did not look like he was going to surrender until I started gobbling more territory though, whereas Spain, Prussia, and Austria all threw in the twel almost immediately after their capital was occupied with a French garrison.  From the two games I've played, the Turkish AI seems to be committing a lot of his troops to the Egypt area, leaving him very vulnerable and easy to attack.  Britain was rxtremely stupid, doing nothing almost the whole game, and I think he stack stayed on Belfast the whole time, while Spains stack hung out in Portugal the whole game.  With that said, after two whole games, I will say the AI seems to be spending wiser, making big stacks, and not making as many boneheaded moves, but the AI for play has a long way to go.  He just doesn't understand where, when, or how to attack and so he spends most of his time just sitting still.

[delatbabel]

In response to the Turkey surrender:  There's a rule where AI players will throw in the towel if their capital is occupied for 3 months (2 for normal AI and 1 for easy AI).  I have nearly always had that happen and haven't been able to duplicate this issue where Turkey doesn't surrender for many months after Constantinople is occupied.  I'm wondering if there is some kind of edge case there, hence wanting to see a save game.

In terms of the French and British (and other) AIs not using their forces to best advantage -- these are fixes that are coming over time and are listed in Mantis issue # 35 and related issues (159, 147, 115, etc).  These aren't going to go away and haven't been forgotten but are being worked on over time.

[Thresh]

Del,

I *think* Imighthave a save game where I occupied Constantinople for longer than thee months, I will have to check...

Todd

[ndrose]

I just posted a case of no Turkish surrender over at the bug tracker. Other observations: The Turks didn't fight too badly. They were pretty passive as I entered the Balkans, but that's not necessarily a bad strategy--let me extend my lines, and spend the money. Certainly better than sending feudals screaming to Vienna on forage. When I reached Constantinople they did attack in force--also good. (They lost, though.) They were hurt by having half their army in Palestine, which is a weird thing: Turkey DOWed Egypt early on, Spain got control, and Turks let the war lapse--didn't cross the border at all. Turkey and Spain are not at war, so it's not a case of I'll-deal-with-you-later. Meanwhile the army sits useless in Jerusalem.

When Turkey DOWed Austria, I sent Charles and most of the army east (which I would never have done against human players) to see if I could tempt AI France into seizing the advantage, with only Mack and a couple of corps in the west. No dice. France is still fussing with minors in Germany (having let me get all of Italy), not even at war with Prussia. It does have Napoleon and a huge Army of Northern Italy sitting on my frontier, which is an improvement; in 1.02, France would probably have declared war, but its army would be in Holstein are someplace, allowing me to take Lombardy and Piedmont, build an army, and spring on Paris when I was ready. So it's definitely moving in the right direction, but doesn't really see its opportunities yet.

[Tater]

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

Here is the mega stack France had that never moved from this spot once it was built up. He never contested for any of that Italian territory, and jsut to the north (unpictured) was mostly dominated by Prussia. This is literally how Europe looked the WHOLE game!!!

The French did the EXACT same thing with their mega-stack in my game. Exact same size and location. And in my game the stack also never moves. This has to be more of a bug than just a bad AI decision...something in the programing is making the French collect in this exact location and then do nothing.

Some other things...
1) The AI's initial fleet dispositions are pretty much insane. If you are going to collect the fleet all in one port there needs to be more than just a 1 factory garrison. As GB I took out the entire French navy and the entire Spanish name within 6 months. The AI has to be programed to either disperse (and protect) the navy to multiple ports (best) OR to better protect the mega fleet in whatever port it's in.

2) The AI's just won't do anything aggressive...even after declaring war. For example, Turkey declares on Egypt...Prussia gets control...Turkey has like 4 Corp in position to attack the lone Egyptian corp...but never does. After 2+ years into the CG Prussia still controls Egypt and the Turk still has 4 corp sitting in Palestine. Another example, Russia is at war with France for over 2 years...not one battle or siege has ever occured...NONE.

3) The AI still is making wired political choices. For example, as GB I am at war with France...Russia is at war with France. I ally with Russia. The Russian lands a couple of corp in French controlled Holland...I land there also with 5 corp...the previous eco-phase I give 20 bucks to Russia. The very next turn after I land in Holland the Russian breaks the alliance with me...a pop-up says he breaks the alliance at not cost in PP...HUH!

4) The AI is still doing a lot of lone corp operations. For example, after landing in Holland I start grabing minors (including Holland). The French mega stack never moves...but he does send 4 full cav corp to try to stop me...I crush them all...along with 2-3 other lone infantry corp he flings at me peicemeal.

[Tater]

VP Status...

OK, after 2+ years of wiping out whole enemy fleets, forcing enemies to unconditional & conditional surrenders, winning battle after battle...GB wasn't even in first place (44% of total). Over the same time period the AI's didn't do squat...nada...totally passive...and all but Spain is ahead of GB in VP % (France which had just surrendered to GB, lost it entire navy and most of it's N.Euro possessions while losing all but one minor battle is at 45%).

I just got to say...that simply doesn't make sense.

What's more, in this situation Prussia and Austria ought to be all over France (along with the Ruski). Instead there they sit doing nothing...and why not when they can do nothing and be sitting at 50%+ VP. And I guess France keeping 70% of it's army stacked out in the middle of the Alps for two years make sense if that is what will get you 45% VP.

I guess what I should have done as the GB player is sit quietly on my island while eco-manipulating. I would probably be in the lead. [:D]

Now that will make for a fun game. [8|]

[RayKinStL]

ORIGINAL: Tater

VP Status...

OK, after 2+ years of wiping out whole enemy fleets, forcing enemies to unconditional & conditional surrenders, winning battle after battle...GB wasn't even in first place (44% of total). Over the same time period the AI's didn't do squat...nada...totally passive...and all but Spain is ahead of GB in VP % (France which had just surrendered to GB, lost it entire navy and most of it's N.Euro possessions while losing all but one minor battle is at 45%).

I just got to say...that simply doesn't make sense.

What's more, in this situation Prussia and Austria ought to be all over France (along with the Ruski). Instead there they sit doing nothing...and why not when they can do nothing and be sitting at 50%+ VP. And I guess France keeping 70% of it's army stacked out in the middle of the Alps for two years make sense if that is what will get you 45% VP.

I guess what I should have done as the GB player is sit quietly on my island while eco-manipulating. I would probably be in the lead. [:D]

Now that will make for a fun game. [8|]

I am not sure how you got France to surrender as GB. If I make a run at Paris, the one thing they will do is move that monster stack to protect their capital. Plus the reason you aren't winning is the way Matrix did difficulty levels. Knowing the AI was garbage, they made up for it by giving the computer more VP (by percentage) each turn depending on the difficulty. Difficuly has nothing to do with the way the computer moves, just the way VP is calculated.

[MarshallEllis]

Actually the AI will not be forced to surrender until they reach Civil Disorder. This happens when the MP can collect no home nation manpower (All provincial capitals and nation's capital occupied at the the beginning of an eco phase).
 
 

[ndrose]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Actually the AI will not be forced to surrender until they reach Civil Disorder. This happens when the MP can collect no home nation manpower (All provincial capitals and nation's capital occupied at the the beginning of an eco phase).

I wondered whether that was it. In that case, what exactly is the definition? "collect no manpower" and "all capitals occupied" are not always the same. I'm thinking particularly of Turkey. Do I have to occupy the capitals of Crete and Cyprus? They produce no manpower.

[RayKinStL]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Actually the AI will not be forced to surrender until they reach Civil Disorder. This happens when the MP can collect no home nation manpower (All provincial capitals and nation's capital occupied at the the beginning of an eco phase).

Well almost every other MP throws in the towel the minute you occupy the capital, but Turkey is the only stingy one that will not surrender.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Tater
Some other things...
1) The AI's initial fleet dispositions are pretty much insane. If you are going to collect the fleet all in one port there needs to be more than just a 1 factory garrison. As GB I took out the entire French navy and the entire Spanish name within 6 months. The AI has to be programed to either disperse (and protect) the navy to multiple ports (best) OR to better protect the mega fleet in whatever port it's in.

This is actually easy to work around. It requires some advance work, though, and probably should be done by Marshall in a future release.

First, save a copy of the game's default setup file for France.

Second, make a setup of the French forces with the fleets in several decent locations and protected by garrisons (at a minimum).

Finally, save the setup you created in step two to the default file used by the system (the one you made a copy of in step 1). This will split up the French in an intelligent way.

Unfortunately, this will make it easy to defeat Great Britain if you happen to be PLAYING France. So, you have to do the same thing playing as GB: Make a copy, setup a game with France having used the setup file you created above, and then save the new setup as the British default setup.

The only problem with this comes if you are playing one or the other power and you don't use the appropriate file. Then, you'll have the poor AI at an extreme disadvantage (something it's quite capable of doing by itself, without your assistance).

I haven't done this recently, and I think I will try it again.

By the way, using the same setup file process works for a lot of nations' starting positions. However, the one most critical setup in the game is the naval setups of France and Great Britain. Everything else can be made up for, but mess this one up, and you potentially cripple one of them very early.

[ndrose]

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Actually the AI will not be forced to surrender until they reach Civil Disorder. This happens when the MP can collect no home nation manpower (All provincial capitals and nation's capital occupied at the the beginning of an eco phase).

Well almost every other MP throws in the towel the minute you occupy the capital, but Turkey is the only stingy one that will not surrender.

I found this to be true in 1.02, but in 1.03 I had Moscow occupied for over a year, and had occupied St Petersburg and every provincial capital except Riga and Sevastopol (yes, even Astrakhan), and had smashed the Russian army (the few remaining, fleeing fragments mostly starved in Finland for lack of money for supply) before Russia surrendered.