What is actually at stake with various boosting.

[Lanconic]

First and foremost,

A USN CV Taskforce is immune to any real threat except from VERY large coordinated strikes.
The combination of intense flak and superb CAP and Radar directed fire control,
results in what? 5% of any lesser strike getting thru?

If the incoming strike fragments into 4-5 waves, it gets worse. Then only the greatest
of lucky breaks will result in a hit.

I am NOT going to get distracted into demands for proofs et.al, anyone that has actually played the Japanese in the game knows the basic truth. If you dont strike BIG, your wasting your planes, and more to the point, your pilots.

The Allied players all know this is true, that is why they argue mods to reduce either Japanese escort ability, or coordinated attacks.

If carried to its logical conclusion, An allied CV strike force will be able to raid immune
from any REAL threat, until attrition depletes its CAP.

I am not interested in anyones various arguments pro or con. My argument is quite simple.
To implement all these various anti-japanese nerfs, makes playing Japan not-fun.

Some people like to assert that this is too bad, that is the way 'they' see reality.
My argument is that the way they see reality, is biased.

The 'reality' is that Japan had VERY little opposition in their sweep. NO USN CV Taskforce
showed up at Java to help the Dutch.
No one bailed out Percival.

There were BIG political reasons that no one wanted to mix forces.
Among them being the biggest.

NO ONE wanted to take the blame for failure.

How many players in a real game decide to sortie Prince of Wales to sink the Jap transports?

They dont =) Why? Because they know its stupid. Odd how Philips didnt think that.
Or if he did, he didnt leave much evidence of it.

I dont care how much supposed 'data' is provided to 'back up' various claims.
Each nerf has a booster, with an agenda. The objectives are political.
That is what I rail against.

The point is that if you make the game, 'unfun' then no one will play it.
THAT, is the bottom line. Yet another GREAT simulation, that no one plays.

[Q-Ball]

OK, I guess I'll wade in.

I am a JFB. Sticking to the original topic, which I think was inpenetrable CV CAP, I can't agree that there is bias toward the USN. There IS bias towards 150+ planes on CAP, the UBER CAP, which is a problem that cuts both ways. It does affect Japan more, simply because the Allies later on can put up more and better fighters than Japan can. But if you get enough Zeros up, you can create the same UBER-Cap and shoot down droves of Allied planes that won't get any hits.

Until the Allies get enough CV's to get 150+ excellent fighters up on CAP, US CV's are very hittable. In a straight-up even CV fight, the IJN will win more than half the time through 1942 (other experienced players back me up please). The fact that 1943 and beyond is tough for Japan has much more to do with NUMBERS than it does with any slanted game mechanics.

UBER CAP needs to be fixed, and my understanding is the AE team recognized this fully, and has worked very hard to fix it. What "should" happen is that a large Japanese strike in 1944 US CVs should produce alot of shot down Japs (though not as much as the game currently has, which is about 100%), and some hits. Even small strikes should net a hit or two.

I do agree that it is frustrating in the sense that organizing a 200 plane strike against a US CV TF in 1944 is just a waste of planes. For the same reason, Kamis seem not as effective in WITP as they were IRL.

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

The 'reality' is that Japan had VERY little opposition in their sweep. NO USN CV Taskforce
showed up at Java to help the Dutch.
No one bailed out Percival.

There were BIG political reasons that no one wanted to mix forces.
Among them being the biggest.

NO ONE wanted to take the blame for failure.

No USN TF showed up at Java, because the US was worried that the Japanese might return to Hawaii with an invasion fleet. They felt it was better to protect the US interests instead of sailing halfway around the globe.

How many players in a real game decide to sortie Prince of Wales to sink the Jap transports?

They dont =) Why? Because they know its stupid. Odd how Philips didnt think that.
Or if he did, he didnt leave much evidence of it.

Trust me, as a player, I have sunk a number of my own ships on foolish excursions.

The point is that if you make the game, 'unfun' then no one will play it.
THAT, is the bottom line. Yet another GREAT simulation, that no one plays.

It seems to me that the "team" is creating a very well defined balance. Seeing as how there are a number of new faces on this forum everyday, I would have to assume the game is still selling. AND, after seeing and reading the numbers of AARs on this board, I would have to say that a lot of people are playing AND enjoying this game. Most players are not even writing AARs. Myself, I have 4 games going currently and all 5 of us are enjoying the game very much.

[Lanconic]

I dont agree. What I see is fewer and fewer OLD faces.

Compare the sales of WitP to say....Aegods Civil War, and remember that WitP has been
for sale for many years.

As for uber-cap, no USN CV has been hit since when?
Not so sure its unrealistic.
That is why I specified a THREE CV taskforce.
Unless you feel that three CV is enough to generate Uber-cap.

[khyberbill]

my opponents dont see my cv too often because they tend to be at the bottom of the sea. my cv's get sunk all the time. in my current game with stephen [&o]he sank 3 of 5 in a tf. the other two each have 88 sys. he lost 2 cv and 2 cvl. we are in 8/42. i expect to do much better in 8/44. but that is history. repeating itself.

ymmv

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

my opponents dont see my cv too often because they tend to be at the bottom of the sea. my cv's get sunk all the time. in my current game with stephen [&o]he sank 3 of 5 in a tf. the other two each have 88 sys. he lost 2 cv and 2 cvl. we are in 8/42. i expect to do much better in 8/44. but that is history. repeating itself.

ymmv

That sounds like a CV vs CV action, not the point I raised.
It also sounds like both of you were willing to engage in situations less than optimal.

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic
I dont agree. What I see is fewer and fewer OLD faces.

If YOU are seeing fewer and fewer "Old faces", then I would guess that you must have another username that you have gone by, because you wouldn't know who the "old faces" were with only being a member for 2 months.

Just because the "Old faces" are not showing up on the forum does not mean that they are not playing WITP anymore.

Compare the sales of WitP to say....Aegods Civil War, and remember that WitP has been
for sale for many years.

I have no idea what the sales of WITP are, and it doesn't matter. There is plenty of people that have mention that they are enjoying WITP "as is" and have for years.

As for uber-cap, no USN CV has been hit since when?
Not so sure its unrealistic.
That is why I specified a THREE CV taskforce.
Unless you feel that three CV is enough to generate Uber-cap.

Yes, uber-cap can be a problem. However, I've seen the japanese have Uber-cap early in the war, and the Allies latter in the war, so it goes both ways.

Also, the game is not perfect. Hopefully, AE will resolve a lot of these problems. All I can say is "if you like it, enjoy it for what it is worth." or "if you don't like it, find something else."

I have faith that the AE team will be releasing a game that they feel will provide enjoyment for both side and still be as realistic as it can be with an old program. After all, these people are not just programers, but are players of the game. Also, with the new editor, it sounds like you can change the game to reflect how "you see the Pacific War".

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

The Allied players all know this is true, that is why they argue mods to reduce either Japanese escort ability, or coordinated attacks.

Actually the most widely played mods are designed to make it easier for Japanese to penetrate CAP. This is certainly true of Nikmod, Big B mod, Nikmod and experimental CHS, Empires Ablaze, and all forms of RHS. The Japanese enhanced Empires Ablaze and RHS give the Japanese better planes for these tasks as well. Also mods generally increase the Japanese pilot pools.

It is only in unmodified stock or CHS without modified air-to-air that your argument holds.

We allied players also reserve the right to do stupid things, like sortie with force Z if we want to. it usually gets clobbered, but once in a while I create complete havoc with it.

As far as AE goes, I don't know how you can make blanket statements of condemnation when you haven't even seen the product yet.

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

The Allied players all know this is true, that is why they argue mods to reduce either Japanese escort ability, or coordinated attacks.

Actually the most widely played mods are designed to make it easier for Japanese to penetrate CAP. This is certainly true of Nikmod, Big B mod, Nikmod and experimental CHS, Empires Ablaze, and all forms of RHS. The Japanese enhanced Empires Ablaze and RHS give the Japanese better planes for these tasks as well. Also mods generally increase the Japanese pilot pools.

It is only in unmodified stock or CHS without modified air-to-air that your argument holds.

We allied players also reserve the right to do stupid things, like sortie with force Z if we want to. it usually gets clobbered, but once in a while I create complete havoc with it.

As far as AE goes, I don't know how you can make blanket statements of condemnation when you haven't even seen the product yet.

Then they are playing a mod, not WitP.
I have condemmed nothing about AE. I have challenged people who are blatantly trying to
influence the design.

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

ORIGINAL: Lanconic
I dont agree. What I see is fewer and fewer OLD faces.

If YOU are seeing fewer and fewer "Old faces", then I would guess that you must have another username that you have gone by, because you wouldn't know who the "old faces" were with only being a member for 2 months.

Just because the "Old faces" are not showing up on the forum does not mean that they are not playing WITP anymore.

Compare the sales of WitP to say....Aegods Civil War, and remember that WitP has been
for sale for many years.

I have no idea what the sales of WITP are, and it doesn't matter. There is plenty of people that have mention that they are enjoying WITP "as is" and have for years.

As for uber-cap, no USN CV has been hit since when?
Not so sure its unrealistic.
That is why I specified a THREE CV taskforce.
Unless you feel that three CV is enough to generate Uber-cap.

Yes, uber-cap can be a problem. However, I've seen the japanese have Uber-cap early in the war, and the Allies latter in the war, so it goes both ways.

Also, the game is not perfect. Hopefully, AE will resolve a lot of these problems. All I can say is "if you like it, enjoy it for what it is worth." or "if you don't like it, find something else."

I have faith that the AE team will be releasing a game that they feel will provide enjoyment for both side and still be as realistic as it can be with an old program. After all, these people are not just programers, but are players of the game. Also, with the new editor, it sounds like you can change the game to reflect how "you see the Pacific War".

Odd that you mention that, but since you dont umbrage with equal severity ALL posters
who are trying to influence the design, I will ignore you as biased.
And if the game has something YOU dont like, you can console yourself with your own words.

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Odd that you mention that, but since you dont umbrage with equal severity ALL posters
who are trying to influence the design, I will ignore you as biased.
And if the game has something YOU dont like, you can console yourself with your own words.

Really, the only thing you said that I disagreed with was the following:

...Yet another GREAT simulation, that no one plays...

Now, I might have misunderstood your point, but it appears you misunderstand my point of "the game is fun as it is now" (even with the bugs) and it appears a lot of people agree with me. AE has the potential to be even better. But, if it isn't too your liking, it seams that the development team has set up the editor to allow user/gamers to tweek things to their own liking.

My only comment about "people trying to influence design" is....just because 1 or 2 people mention that they think thing should be "this way" or "that way" does not mean that the development team is catering to their beliefs. I have faith that the team is using some basic sense and are "fixing" problems that A LOT of people have complained about for some time (including Uber cap).

As far as my comments to "ALL posters who are trying to influence the design": I am not a major poster on this site. I visit it many times almost every day and read almost every thread, but as you can see, I've been a member for almost 4 years and only have less the 800 posts. I'm not bias as far as JFB or AFB goes, as I play both sides. I have played "PACWAR" and have enjoyed myself even with all of it's problems......I have enjoyed "WITP" even with all of it's problems,....and I'm sure I will enjoy "AE" even with all of it's problems (no matter how much any specific type of Fanboys influence it).

[undercovergeek]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic
Odd that you mention that, but since you dont umbrage with equal severity ALL posters
who are trying to influence the design, I will ignore you as biased.
And if the game has something YOU dont like, you can console yourself with your own words.

have you come to discuss your concerns or have you come to argue? - these people are trying to have a decent, constuctive discussion with you

[spence]

Yes, uber-cap can be a problem. However, I've seen the japanese have Uber-cap early in the war, and the Allies latter in the war, so it goes both ways

 
There is something of a historical precedent for the Allied UBERCAP.  The "Marianas Turkey Shoot" tends indicate that the USN had developed a remarkable system for defending the fleet by mid-1944 but the raid by just Saratoga and Princeton against Rabaul in late 1943 tends to indicate that the system predated that battle by a considerable margin. 
 
On the other hand the Japanese UBERCAP is a historical fantasy.  Reality has Ensign Yoshida (Assistant Morale Officer and charged with keeping the Coke Machines on the 2nd Deck full in normal circumstances) crouching over his radar (temporarily set up in the ship's bean locker) guiding the CAP by sending his trusty sidekick Yamaguchi (stationed in the fireroom) fighter directions through mental telepathy, while the later encrypts smoke signals to the non-radio-equipped "falcons" above.        

[anarchyintheuk]

The IJN seemed to think the US had uber-cap ability in 44 at least. The IJNAF invented this thing where they started flying their aircraft into USN ships because they couldn't them often enough otherwise.

I still have no idea what 'anti-japanese nerfs' were implemented. Want to enlighten me?

[Elessar]

The Battle of the Philippine Sea is a good argument, the same thing could be said about allied fire control, it was improved significantly during the war. By 1944 a fletcher class destroyer's fire control was probably more sofisticated than any thing the IJN had even on a battleship or carrier.

BUT

to add my litte inexperienced oppinion: In 1944 it is close irrelevant if you send 150 40xp or 90xp pilots. While 1944 raids on US carrier task forces should be devastating for japanese planes i think the whole thing, radar, flak and CAP schould be moddled in a way that pilot experirence does still matter. When you had you been carefull with your crack pilots earlyer in the war they should still be a real danger in the later war. Those real life american victories have to be seen in context of totaly inexperienced jap pilotes. Experienced pilotes would certainly have gotten much more planes throug. In my eyes, among many things, coordination would make a huge difference in effectivity and lethality of attacks.  27 torpedo bombers, one attacking after another are easyly shot down. 12 in a row should have a good chance of getting a few fish on target, got my point?

[Panther Bait]

Even as lopsided at the Battle of the Philippine Sea was, a fair number of Japanese planes made it through the CAP and got into attack range of the US fleet.  They only got one hit in on South Dakota, but there were a number of near misses. 

[m10bob]

One of the major "game flaws" in any game which is historically based is that we (students of the war) have the vision and advantage of hindsight. This allows us the option of deploying Force Z off the coast of Malaysia, or not.
This particular hindsight ability will be somewhat negated when AE comes out, as the team has told us the game will be moddable to where we (the players) can alter the time/action routines of the opposing sides so while we might be prepared for historical movement, the AI may suddenly make a "left hand turn" and alter its' objectives and direction of priority mid-stream.

Even in stock, I have never seen the early war allies enjoying any kind of "uber cap" over friendly carriers, and have lost many allied carriers early on to prove it.

It is ironic that as potential a weapon as the Japanese recognized aviation to be, they were very weak from day one in providing their ships with an adequate anti-aircraft defense for their own ships.

While by the time of the Marianas, maybe only 3-5% of Japanese planes ever got thru the allied CAP(IRL), one might wonder if the Marianas would have even been possible if the Japanese had not lost their 4 main flat-tops at Midway?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Then they are playing a mod, not WitP.
I have condemmed nothing about AE. I have challenged people who are blatantly trying to
influence the design.


[/quote]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have understood AE is already an item "carved in stone", and in the phase of some serious play-testing, with the only possibility of any alterations at this point being of an interior result from the playtesters.
Any present comments are being saved for possible *future* updates,(which are voluntarily accepted, or not).

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

ORIGINAL: Lanconic
Odd that you mention that, but since you dont umbrage with equal severity ALL posters
who are trying to influence the design, I will ignore you as biased.
And if the game has something YOU dont like, you can console yourself with your own words.

have you come to discuss your concerns or have you come to argue? - these people are trying to have a decent, constuctive discussion with you

My purpose in this thread was stated in the first post.
You could read it, and respond to THAT =)

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Then they are playing a mod, not WitP.
I have condemmed nothing about AE. I have challenged people who are blatantly trying to
influence the design.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have understood AE is already an item "carved in stone", and in the phase of some serious play-testing, with the only possibility of any alterations at this point being of an interior result from the playtesters.
Any present comments are being saved for possible *future* updates,(which are voluntarily accepted, or not).

[/quote]

Then that is unfortunate. Hopefully they got rid of the invincible B-17.
I have no idea.