THE STOLEN 'JAP' ADVANTAGE

[Japan]

Its one thing who makes me VERY Uppset with WITP.



THE STOLEN ADVANTAGE


In The Real World, the Japanese Could Strike Allied Carriers a loong time before any Allied Carriers Could Attack the Japanese Carriers.

Why has this not been implemented in WITP ??

This is especialy in early war, and was part of the Japanese Navel 'Standard A' Military Doctrine.




COMPERECON:

B5N KATE
RANGE (Combat Condition): 1700 KM
CRUISE SPEED: 320 KM/H



SBN DOUNTLESS
RANGE (Combat Condition): 950 KM
CRUISE SPEED 270 KM/H


This is the insane 750 KM (Combat Configuration) Difference in Distanse Between Them. So, Japanese had almost TWISE the striking range, and yes thay used it. At 320 KM/H the Planes would manage an Attack at this Range and to fly back, land, refuel, rearm, eat some food, have a nap, and then depart together with the Dive Bombers for the "main" strike. (As range then at 33 knots have closed so the Jap divebombers also can attack, and yes, thay also have longer range then the allied ones... thay can depart 44 minnits earlyer then the Dountles) Just wanna mantion that the standard combat ranges for the allies is evan shorter, and allied long range carrier squadron navigation was realy poor in early war, anyway, evan without including that, but simply look at the Plane Ranges, the Japanese Torpedo Planes should been launched from the carriers first, then (if within range) the main Jap and Allied Strikes should been lunched.


With other words, THE STOLEN ADVANTAGE, is to remove the First Strike Capebilety the Japs actualy had... in stead giving both sides a 5 Hexes Range... I think this is sad, and removes an Advantage the Japanese Actualy did have.



Imagine all those WITP players, and all those WITP Carrier Duels, how thay would been different, if the actual numbers and values was like in real world!
1) KATE Bombers STRIKE, trying to torpedo fast moving ships, of course with small chanse of hitting
2) Japanese Torpedo Bombers return, rearm, rest, refit - while the fleets close to echater
3) MAIN STRIKES from Both Sides


Ok the hit chanse for the KATES first strike would be redused as thay attack fast moving undamaged ships... but still it should be possible like in real war, as it evan was a Standard Japanese Doctrine.

It was by the Japanese "Standard A" - Main Doctrine.
(Doctrine was about maintaining range while Torpedo Bombers Attack, and then to close range when thay rearm and rest, for the combined main strike).







(Sourse, WW2 By Thems)








I hope you Programmers, please can fix this flawd.

And i hope you AE Programmers will give the Japanese the Advantage here thay thay are supose to have!



[8D][8D][8D]

[:)]

[Terminus]

The Japs have more than enough advantages already. They won't be getting any more.

[Japan]

OK!

But just want to mantion,   that this is  TO Ignore Realety   

So, the Realism Aspect of this Game is now very different then  real world, and this is within the preferences of the maker.

Maby somone will make a Realism Mod for the game at some point.



[:-]

[spence]

Doctrinally the Japanese were not inclined to use the advantage. The admirals all pretty much adhered to a "lay alongside the enemy" mentality. Hiryu charged towards the Americans after all her compatriots had been effectively destroyed at Midway (at least until after her two airstrikes had gone and returned (sorta)).

The Japanese managed to pull off a first strike only at The Battle of the Philippine Sea. At Midway where they were ambushed the Americans had 170 strike aircraft enroute to and striking KB before they got a single plane aloft on an antiship mission. In all the other historical battles the strikes were, for the purposes of game simulation, mutual and coincident. So history really doesn't support your contentions whatsoever.

The range advantage of the Japanese a/c is present in the game. The ability to make use of it is up to the players and is difficult to achieve for the Japanese Player but if you read the AARs you see it happening sometimes. The ability of the Allied Player to ambush the Japanese a la Midway is
non-existent since actionable intelligence of location, destination and rough timing of naval units is NEVER provided to him by ALLIED SIGINT in the game.

[Japan]

Well...   Both sides has max 5 hexes range on the Carrier Fleets,  should been like 5 for Allies and 9 for Japan If you want Realism!


The Game has taken balance things into considuration instead of produsing equicmant and tools equal to realety,  I actualy dont like that at all, as i would prefered the exact real world oppertunityes, and then instead to be outnumbered 5-1 in everything like real world also...

So, I think this:    Reproduse the Correct Units, in Correct Quantetyes for all sides - and give Allies an Inteligence Advantage.  
Totaly Dissregard Game Balance, and instead give the Qualety in form of Historical Accurate.  (Ie. Equicmant simuler to the real world Equicmant).
Dont Reduse the Qualety of Japanese Equicmant just because of Game Balance or whatever reason you might have for it!

Give us Realism, not Game Balance!  - I think most prefere Realism here.


There is many US-Fanboys here and maby also some Jap-Fanboys, but the ones doing the programming should be strictly Historicle Correct and Objective. (Not Favure any side, only try to reproduse strictly historical accurate items).

Then, if the tactics are used or not and what doctrines "my Japan" shall use, should be decided by the Player. Just reproduse the units Historicly Correct....
(or does it sell better to create Allied Advantage?)



Anyway, thats MHO, I know that there is Modders out there who create historicly correct units and situations ect.. im sure thay could look into it when time comes.

[mdiehl]

In The Real World, the Japanese Could Strike Allied Carriers a loong time before any Allied Carriers Could Attack the Japanese Carriers.

That is not very accurate. The Japanese planes had the range to do so, but Japanese doctrine limited the action radius of Japanese a.c. to a maximum of about 230 miles when attacking naval targets (doctrine gave them significantly longer legs against fixed targets such as bases and installations). In part this was due to the concern over successfully navigating to a moving target and thence returning to a moving base, in part it was owing to concerns that the target would move to some unknown location in the interim of long flights, in part it was owing to the fact that a well thrown rock could badly damage any of the Japanese strike a.c. (so they needed a generous amount of fuel as a contingency to battle damage), and in part it was was because of the fact that Japanese recon planes were slow and operated from CAs (so it was difficult to get timely information on a target much further out than 200 or so miles).

Why has this not been implemented in WITP ??

Because it would be ahistorically unrealistic to implement it, possibly.

[Charbroiled]

I think this is implemented in WITP.

I'm not at my game computer at the moment, but, in stock (early-war), doesn't Kates and Vals have a range of 5, the Dauntless has a range of 4, and the Avenger has a range of 3?

[Splinterhead]

Avenger has a range of 5 in stock, you're thinking of Devastators (rng=3)

[John 3rd]

I have used the range advantage several times in my Campaigns (Stock and Mod) to strike the American CVs and NOT get hit.
 

[Nomad]

I, on the other hand, have been on the receiving end of a long range Japanese attack. Nothing like watching a bunch of Kates slam torpedeos into your CVs while your bombers are sitting in the hanger deck.

[Flying Tiger]

I'm not sure what Japan is so upset about. The Jap AC in the game are given very long range performance figures (un-historically long in stock). The Jap player is able to launch extremely long range naval strikes from land bases (un-historically long range! - i would love to meet the Betty pilot who could find a lone TK mid pacific and 800 miles from base!!!), and even from carriers he still has a significant range advantage - even with a 5 hex limit - because the early Allied carrier AC only have ranges of 2, 3 or 4. And as has already been said the Japs never launched a naval strike from carriers at greater than 300 miles (5 hexes). So if we want historical accuracy.... ummmm... it sure is NOT going to help Japan!!!!!

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I have used the range advantage several times in my Campaigns (Stock and Mod) to strike the American CVs and NOT get hit.

As have I

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I have used the range advantage several times in my Campaigns (Stock and Mod) to strike the American CVs and NOT get hit.

As have I

Many times I have had my Allied ships hit by an airstrike and never even located the enemy flattops......

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: spence

Doctrinally the Japanese were not inclined to use the advantage. The admirals all pretty much adhered to a "lay alongside the enemy" mentality. Hiryu charged towards the Americans after all her compatriots had been effectively destroyed at Midway (at least until after her two airstrikes had gone and returned (sorta)).

The Japanese managed to pull off a first strike only at The Battle of the Philippine Sea. At Midway where they were ambushed the Americans had 170 strike aircraft enroute to and striking KB before they got a single plane aloft on an antiship mission. In all the other historical battles the strikes were, for the purposes of game simulation, mutual and coincident. So history really doesn't support your contentions whatsoever.

The range advantage of the Japanese a/c is present in the game. The ability to make use of it is up to the players and is difficult to achieve for the Japanese Player but if you read the AARs you see it happening sometimes. The ability of the Allied Player to ambush the Japanese a la Midway is
non-existent since actionable intelligence of location, destination and rough timing of naval units is NEVER provided to him by ALLIED SIGINT in the game.

Actually he is correct. Simply read Morrison for example.
The Japanese were well aware they outranged the USN

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead

Avenger has a range of 5 in stock, you're thinking of Devastators (rng=3)

Ahh, yes, I was thinking of the Devastator....Thank You.

Then I guess I don't understand the original post. The Japanese planes do have longer range (at least in early-war). Unless he is talking about the "amount" of range difference, or is refering to a mod.[&:][&:]

[Dili]

The problem is that sea search is too good, lets hope it still be less so in AE, so the Japanese attack planes had to be tonned down since you could extended float plane range to extreme and still get a good chance of finding the enemy, it is also related to gamey way that the engine allows players to use floatplanes like in CS ships with 20 floatplanes without wasting loads of time to recover them.

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: Dili

The problem is that sea search is too good, lets hope it still be less so in AE, so the Japanese attack planes had to be tonned down since you could extended float plane range to extreme and still get a good chance of finding the enemy, it is also related to gamey way that the engine allows players to use floatplanes like in CS ships with 20 floatplanes without wasting loads of time to recover them.

I think with the addition of directional search, naval searching is going to be different and should make the game more interesting.

[Japan]

Hey Gentlemen





Im not claiming to be an expert, but Admiral Chester William Nimitz who IMHO is an expert, sayes the following in WW2 By Thems. 
(WW2 By Thems is the most accurate WW2 Series availeble, it took 8 years to make it, and thay interwiev Generals, Field Marchals, Political Leders and Military Leders of WW2, who still was alive arround 1952 - 1960).




Admiral Chester William Nimitz  claims there the following:

The Only thing he was worryed about during WW2, was the Combat Range of the KATE, this as thay could Strike when still far byon American Carrier Range. He also claims that if far out at sea, the Japanese could striked the Americnas a significant amount of time before the American's could evan detect the Japanese Fleets. He claims also that he warned his staff and fleet commanders about this, and that this was the only real fare he had during the whole of WW2. He also sayes, that in the Early War, the reason for the American Sucsess aiganst the Japanese Carriers was Pure Luck, and Skilled Inteligence Work. He claims that it had nothing to do with the Preformance of the Planes Duglus had delivered, nor the skill or training of the American Pilots. He has spent alot of time thingking about the war, and are very suprised and very thankfull that the Inteligence Servise managed the inteligence brake throu thay did, or he is convinsed that thay would had serius problems at sea for a very long time. He also made early war guidelines, to avoid all Japanese Carriers, and as soon as thay got informations about them, thay checked that no American carriers was in that area, only when he could use weather to close the range, or arround midway times the suppirior inteligence, is when he allowed engagements.  




Aigan, if this Nimitz is right or wrang I cant tell, but I personaly anyways consider him as an expert.
I think its sad that the game is so "American Favorised" on this very important area, as Carrier Plane Ranges.

Its not about tactics or doctrines, its about the Actual Transport and Combat Range of the KATE compared to the Actual Transport and Combat Range of the Dountless, and the programmers made it equal (5 hexes eatch or 4/5 ect) instead of making it realistic, who would be almost twise the range for the KATE.

This is what im upset about, that the game who claim to be realistic, is failing on this crucial area.


See WW2 By Thems, and you will here the words of the actual Admirals and Generals of WW2, thay might give you some interesting perspectives on thigs.



[&:]

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: Japan

...and the programmers made it equal (5 hexes eatch)...

The range of the Dauntless is only 4 hexes in stock.

[Japan]

Its very very very far from having  KATE with 5 Hexes vs Dountless with 4 Hexes...   and the Realistic Alternative who would be like
 
Dountless with 4 Hexes and KATE with 7 hexes....