Newbie Question

[Harrybanana]

What is the difference, if any, between "moving" a unit from one hex to another and "withdrawing" a unit from one hex to another?

[FrankHunter]

Withdrawals can't occur into enemy or contested hexes whereas "moving" won't happen if the hex being moved from is attacked. On the other hand "moving" doesn't incur the readiness penalty that withdrawal does.

[Harrybanana]

Thank you for your fast response Frank.

Ah, I wish I had known this before my Italian debacle.

When you say "moving" won't happen if the hex being moved from is attacked, does it matter who has initiative? In other words if I Order units to "move" to a hex and my units have initiative and the hex they are moving from is attacked, will my units still get to move? If so will they get to move before or after the attack?

Do you always manage to "withdraw" prior to being attacked? Do your units always get attacked before thet get to withdraw? Or does it matter who has initiative?

Offhand do you know what the readiness penalty is for a Withdrawl?

[FrankHunter]

When you say "moving" won't happen if the hex being moved from is attacked, does it matter who has initiative?

Yes, non-activated "moving" units will be caught by activated enemy units, BUT, activated "moving" units are just as likely to move as to be caught.

In other words if I Order units to "move" to a hex and my units have initiative and the hex they are moving from is attacked, will my units still get to move?

Maybe, depends on the readiness, terrain, quality and random modifier of the units. Whichever side gets to move first will pin the other.

Do you always manage to "withdraw" prior to being attacked?

No, but your chances of doing so are pretty good. However, each unit in a stack is tested separately so its possible some will move and some will get caught.

Offhand do you know what the readiness penalty is for a Withdrawl?

Double whatever the normal readiness cost would have been as modified by terrain.

[geoffreyg]

Under the new patch I think the withdraw order is working pretty well. Improved chance of withdrawal but not pre- ordained.
I wondered however whether the penalty was high enough. Is it worth considering x4 normal penalty?

[Lascar]

ORIGINAL: geoffreyg

Under the new patch I think the withdraw order is working pretty well. Improved chance of withdrawal but not pre- ordained.
I wondered however whether the penalty was high enough. Is it worth considering x4 normal penalty?

A x4 penalty would make withdrawal prohibitive and a unit would be better off holding its ground and taking its chances there. A unit at full readiness, more often than not a unit attempting withdrawal would not be at full readiness, would be reduced to 5 or 1 readiness depending on terrain. The enemy would occupy that hex and then attack the drastically reduced unit in the next impulse which at that point would have no hope of withdrawing again and would be slaughtered.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

No, but your chances of doing so are pretty good. However, each unit in a stack is tested separately so its possible some will move and some will get caught.

Do activated units stand a better chance of withdrawing before being attacked than non-activated units?

[EdinHouston]

actually I am finding that the new withdrawal rules really dont change things that much. As the TE, pretty much every time I have withdrawn, the superior quality of the German troops coupled with the advantage of the attacker, allows them to move before my units retreat, and my units get caught anyway. However in a current game as the CP, the TE player did seem to be able to withdraw some troops before I could run them down. It does seem to be pretty random, and therefore not that decisive either way.

[Harrybanana]

More Questions

Which of the following, if any, are correct:

1. First all units with Withdraw Orders are checked on a unit by unit basis to determine if they withdraw successfully,

2. Second all activated units are checked to see who moves first, again on a unit by unit basis. If one activated unit in a hex moves into an enemy occupied hex than it prevents all remaining enemy units (ie those which have not already moved) from moving. Or,

2. Second all activated units are checked on a stack by stack basis to see which stacks move first, or

2. Second an initative roll is made to see which side gets to move all of it's activated units before the other side,or

2. Second, something else.

3. Third all non-activated units which are not being attacked are moved.

And just to be sure I understand this, do all activated units always get to move before unactivated units; or is there at least some remote chance that an unactivated unit will get to move before it is attacked.

Which of the following are factors that are considered in determining if a unit can successfully withdraw before it is attacked? Activated or not? Unit quality? Unit organization? Terrain in the hex being moved from? Terrain in the hex being moved to? Crossing a River? Side (CP or ENT)? Other?

[FrankHunter]

1. First all units with Withdraw Orders are checked on a unit by unit basis to determine if they withdraw successfully,

Nope, this is incorrect

2. Second all activated units are checked to see who moves first, again on a unit by unit basis. If one activated unit in a hex moves into an enemy occupied hex than it prevents all remaining enemy units (ie those which have not already moved) from moving. Or,

All, units, not just activated ones, are checked. Each unit is given a movement rating based on its circumstances. After that is done for all units, then and only then does movement begin and that is done in the order of the movement ratings, starting from the highest down to the lowest.

2. Second all activated units are checked on a stack by stack basis to see which stacks move first, or

Nope, its like what I wrote above and also "stacks" are not given a rating, its done on a unit by unit basis.

2. Second an initative roll is made to see which side gets to move all of it's activated units before the other side,or

Nope, there is no initiative roll for a side. The closest thing to it is the random number added to each units movement rating when that is computed.

3. Third all non-activated units which are not being attacked are moved.

And just to be sure I understand this, do all activated units always get to move before unactivated units; or is there at least some remote chance that an unactivated unit will get to move before it is attacked.

The modifier for being activated is pretty high, and so everything else being equal a non-activated unit won't usually move before an activated one, units on Withdraw excepted. However, it is possible if there were major differences between the units circumstances but most of the time units on the attack are going to be in good shape.

Which of the following are factors that are considered in determining if a unit can successfully withdraw before it is attacked? Activated or not? Unit quality? Unit organization? Terrain in the hex being moved from? Terrain in the hex being moved to? Crossing a River? Side (CP or ENT)? Other?

Whether the unit is activated or on withdrawal. The unit quality. The unit's readiness. Unit type, cavalry gets a bonus. Terrain, river crossing is not counted here. There are no nationality or side modifiers.

[Harrybanana]

Frank,

Thank you very much for your continued patience here and I am sorry for being such a pest. So if I understand you correctly the following statements should all be true:

1. For a unit ordered to withdraw it makes no difference to it's "movement rating" if it has been activated or not (you never really answered this question above, but I assume this is the case).

2. A Unit ordered to withdraw will have, all other things being equal, a higher "movement rating" than any other unit and therefore, will have a pretty good chance of escaping combat (but at a cost to it's readiness).

3. The only modifiers to a Units "Movement Rating" are whether or not it has been ordered to withdraw, whether or not it has been activated, it's type, it's quality, it's readiness and the terrain it is in.

4. An activated unit will, all other things being equal, have only a 50% chance of moving before it's hex is attacked. Actually I suppose even less than this. If you have a unit in a hex you wish to move which is being attacked by 4 enemy units of similar quality and readiness the odds of it's moving first (and thus avoiding combat) is only 20%. If even 1 of the opposing enemy units bests it's Movement Rating then it will be pinned and attacked by all 4 opposing enemy units.

5. A non-activated unit will have only a slim chance of moving before it is attacked and even then probably only if it has a much higher quality and readiness then the enemy units.

6. A unit moving or withdrawing from a rough terrain hex will, all other things being equal, have a lower "movement rating" than a unit located in a clear terrain hex.

7. The terrain in the hex into which a unit is moving has no effect on it's "movement rating."

8. All movement is completed before combat is resolved, except of course, that any units ordered to move/withdraw out of a hex which is attacked by an enemy unit before they move/withdraw do not get to move/withdraw at all.

9. Based on the above, it is therefore possible that you could order, for example, a stack of 4 infantry to attack enemy hex "A" which is occupied by 2 units; 2 of your attacking units obtain high "movement ratings" (either through luck, or higher Quality or Readiness) and move into attack, however, your two other units have lower "movement ratings" and before they can join the attack the hex they are attacking from is itself attacked by a stack of 3 enemy units entering from enemy hex "B". The net result is that instead of getting to attack 4 on 2, or at least defend 3 on 4, you end up with one attack of 2 on 2 and one defence of 3 on 2.


The problem I am still faced with if I am trying to extract my units from a bad situation is should I withdraw them, and suffer the Readiness Loss, or waste an Offensive to move them, with a lower chance of moving them before they are attacked? What would help me in making this decison is to know how much higher the "withdrawl" order will increase my "movement rate" over a simple activation and order to move. Does it increase it by 25%, 50%, a 100%. Any clues here Frank?


Finally, you say that a "withdrawl" will decrease readiness by double what a simple "move" order would reduce readiness. My experience is that move Orders don't seem to effect readiness much at all. My English units landed in Brest and marched across France, but still have a readiness of 9. Am I missing something?

[FrankHunter]

1. For a unit ordered to withdraw it makes no difference to it's "movement rating" if it has been activated or not (you never really answered this question above, but I assume this is the case).

True

2. A Unit ordered to withdraw will have, all other things being equal, a higher "movement rating" than any other unit and therefore, will have a pretty good chance of escaping combat (but at a cost to it's readiness).

Almost true, everything else being equal the differences are small enough that the random number added to each unit will probably determine which moves first.

3. The only modifiers to a Units "Movement Rating" are whether or not it has been ordered to withdraw, whether or not it has been activated, it's type, it's quality, it's readiness and the terrain it is in.

Yes

4. An activated unit will, all other things being equal, have only a 50% chance of moving before it's hex is attacked. Actually I suppose even less than this. If you have a unit in a hex you wish to move which is being attacked by 4 enemy units of similar quality and readiness the odds of it's moving first (and thus avoiding combat) is only 20%. If even 1 of the opposing enemy units bests it's Movement Rating then it will be pinned and attacked by all 4 opposing enemy units.

Yes

5. A non-activated unit will have only a slim chance of moving before it is attacked and even then probably only if it has a much higher quality and readiness then the enemy units.

Yes

6. A unit moving or withdrawing from a rough terrain hex will, all other things being equal, have a lower "movement rating" than a unit located in a clear terrain hex.

7. The terrain in the hex into which a unit is moving has no effect on it's "movement rating."

I think #6 is true and #7 is false but I should look that up in the code to be sure. From memory the terrain you move into determines the readiness cost.

8. All movement is completed before combat is resolved, except of course, that any units ordered to move/withdraw out of a hex which is attacked by an enemy unit before they move/withdraw do not get to move/withdraw at all.

Yes

9. Based on the above, it is therefore possible that you could order, for example, a stack of 4 infantry to attack enemy hex "A" which is occupied by 2 units; 2 of your attacking units obtain high "movement ratings" (either through luck, or higher Quality or Readiness) and move into attack, however, your two other units have lower "movement ratings" and before they can join the attack the hex they are attacking from is itself attacked by a stack of 3 enemy units entering from enemy hex "B". The net result is that instead of getting to attack 4 on 2, or at least defend 3 on 4, you end up with one attack of 2 on 2 and one defence of 3 on 2.

I believe that's true

The problem I am still faced with if I am trying to extract my units from a bad situation is should I withdraw them, and suffer the Readiness Loss, or waste an Offensive to move them, with a lower chance of moving them before they are attacked? What would help me in making this decison is to know how much higher the "withdrawl" order will increase my "movement rate" over a simple activation and order to move. Does it increase it by 25%, 50%, a 100%. Any clues here Frank?

Go with withdraw and take the readiness loss. Far cheaper than using up an "offensive" and yet the offensive will probably only give you something like a 0%-5% better chance (depending on readiness) which is pretty small. So definitely use the Withdrawal order in that situation.

Finally, you say that a "withdrawl" will decrease readiness by double what a simple "move" order would reduce readiness. My experience is that move Orders don't seem to effect readiness much at all. My English units landed in Brest and marched across France, but still have a readiness of 9. Am I missing something?

Good quality units in supply should have no trouble at all in marching across France unopposed. The loss of 1 or 2 readiness should be recovered easily that same impulse. Amphibious movement also costs no readiness.

On the other hand if you're losing more readiness than you can recover in an impulse, due to either poison gas, casualties, a withdrawal, lack of supply or low troop quality, then its only a matter of time till you're in trouble.

Thank you very much for your continued patience here and I am sorry for being such a pest.

Not at all, its what I'm here for, thank you to all for your support.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

Go with withdraw and take the readiness loss. Far cheaper than using up an "offensive" and yet the offensive will probably only give you something like a 0%-5% better chance (depending on readiness) which is pretty small. So definitely use the Withdrawal order in that situation.

Ok, so then so are you saying that a Withdrawl order gives a unit only a slightly higher"movement rating" modifier than an activated unit. If so then there is no point in "Withdrawing" an activated unit, you may as well just move it.

[FrankHunter]

Ok, so then so are you saying that a Withdrawl order gives a unit only a slightly higher"movement rating" modifier than an activated unit.

The other way around

If so then there is no point in "Withdrawing" an activated unit, you may as well just move it.

Why would you withdraw an activated unit? Normal moving is good to go from one friendly hex to another but if you want to leave a hex you expect to be attacked you're better off with a withdrawal order.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

Why would you withdraw an activated unit? Normal moving is good to go from one friendly hex to another but if you want to leave a hex you expect to be attacked you're better off with a withdrawal order.

Well now that I know the rules I wouldn't withdraw an activated unit. But I thought that a withdrawl order gave even an activated unit a better chance of vacating a hex before it is attacked. Still I can think of certain desperate situations where you might want to waste an offensive to "move" a unit from a threatened hex rather than saving the offensive and withdrawing. For example you may have lots of offensives saved up and you want to retreat with out losing any readiness and, as you point out, an activated does have a slightly better chance of moving than a non-activated unit does of withdrawing (though you say it is only a marginal difference).

[FrankHunter]

For example you may have lots of offensives saved up and you want to retreat with out losing any readiness and, as you point out, an activated does have a slightly better chance of moving than a non-activated unit does of withdrawing (though you say it is only a marginal difference).

Right, it is a very small difference, as a pollster would say its within the margin of error since its less than the value of the random factors at play.