Submarine throttle mission behavior

[rsharp@advancedgamin]

Howdy folks,

Some have brought the issue to me of subs only moving at Creep throttle on missions. This change was intentional in ANW and I believe, but do not know, that the reasoning was to make the subs stealthier and able to use their passive sonar to greater effectiveness. Some have brought up that the subs will simply lurk but not threaten any other craft because they cannot properly intercept.

This behavior, standard speed for subs on missions, will be user configurable on a per mission basis in the next version of Harpoon already completed but untested, 3.10. However, given how the current behavior might break a number of scenarios I'm considering making an alternate speed setting available.

So what throttle do you believe the subs should use when:

Intercepting another sub on patrol and strike missions
Intercepting a ship on patrol and strike missions
On a transit mission
Intercepting on a strike mission
Searching on a strike mission

If we come to some sort of consensus then I will make an alternate speed setting or set of settings able to be activated via a switch in harpoon3.ini.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Hello Russel,

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

Howdy folks,

[...]

So what throttle do you believe the subs should use when:

Intercepting another sub on patrol and strike missions
Intercepting a ship on patrol and strike missions
On a transit mission
Intercepting on a strike mission
Searching on a strike mission

[...]

Thanks.

I could live with the following settings:

1. Intercepting another sub on patrol and strike missions: FULL

2. Intercepting a ship on patrol and strike missions: FLANK

3. On a transit mission: CRUISE

4. Intercepting on a strike mission: CRUISE

5. Searching on a strike mission: CRUISE

I´m not sure, though. Other opinions needed I think.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

So what throttle do you believe the subs should use when:

Intercepting another sub on patrol and strike missions
Intercepting a ship on patrol and strike missions
On a transit mission
Intercepting on a strike mission
Searching on a strike mission

To simplify matters, I'll try to focus on what I think has changed between H3 and ANW with regards to submarines on the various missions. These are the behaviours I have observed. Others may have seen different things.

• Intercepting another sub on patrol and strike missions
  
  In H3, Subs on the ASW area patrol mission will intercept another sub at a maximum of cruise speed. When running tests at 30 min compression, they, more often than not, seem to have difficulty determining the speed of the contact. The contact is estimated to be running at 0 kts so the subs approach it at creep speed. Once the target is determined to be faster, they do try to intercept at cruise speed, but no faster.
  
  In ANW, Subs on the ASW area patrol mission will also intercept another sub at a maximum of cruise speed. However, this is very, very rare from my observations even though the contact speed is usually determined much more quickly than in H3. When running on 30 min compression, this was never seen. When the game slowed down to 1:1 or 1:5, short bursts of cruise speed were seen, but this was not often the case.
  
  In both H3 and ANW, Subs on the Sub Strike mission were seen to intercept others sub at a maximum of cruise speed.
• Intercepting a ship on patrol and strike missions
  
  The same observations were seen as the ASW area patrol mission. Subs in H3 were easily able to intercept at cruise speed whereas ANW subs were rarely ever seen doing so.
• On a transit mission
  
  No change between H3 and ANW.
• Intercepting on a strike mission
  
  Previously answered.
• Searching on a strike mission
  
  AFAIK, there is 'no searching' on a strike mission. The unit is either intercepting a target or it is motionless. If users try to plot a path before a strike mission activates, they are able to set whatever speed they deem appropriate.

I am uncertain that the max speed settings for the missions has changed between H3 and ANW. I think that the potential for units to run at cruise speed exists in ANW. However, something seems to prevent them from utilizing it. The far superior aggressive behaviour seen by subs in H3 has been noted by more than one user. The problem may lie more in the intercept decision / plotting process than in the default speed settings. For example, when running at high compression, the subs seemed to be tracking contacts that are long gone or false images that should probably have been dropped.

Significant difference between H3 and ANW for ASuW area patrol mission:

• In H3, units that started away from the reference points for the area patrol would approach the patrol zone at cruise speed. Once within the patrol zone, the unit would drop to creep speed and patrol the zone at this reduced velocity.
• In ANW, units that started away from the reference points for the area patrol would approach the patrol zone at creep speed. Once within the patrol zone, the unit would drop to creep speed and patrol the zone at this reduced velocity.

ORIGINAL: koelbach

1. Intercepting another sub on patrol and strike missions: FULL

2. Intercepting a ship on patrol and strike missions: FLANK

3. On a transit mission: CRUISE

• 1. Intercepting another sub on patrol and strike missions: FULL
  
  I disagree that it should be on Full Speed. The noise generated would likely mean suicide for any unit on this mission. In both H3 and ANW, units that cannot intercept the target at Cruise speed return to their patrol position. I believe that this is a far more prudent behaviour.
• 2. Intercepting a ship on patrol and strike missions: FLANK
  
  I disagree that Flank Speed should ever be used in any mission behaviour. AFAIK, Flank is only used in dire emergencies as it causes a strain on the machinery. Although neither H3 nor ANW can simulate real life mechanical failures and a player/designer can abuse this (lack of) limitation at will, making it a mission behaviour upon which all scenarios are designed may not be such a good overall effect. I do not believe that any H3 mission currently employs this speed and it is reserved for torpedo evasion.
• 3. On a transit mission: CRUISE
  
  Currently, subs on Transit mission do so at creep speed in both H3 and ANW. Therefore, I think that this should be retained as the baseline behaviour for minimum disruption. If the ability to modify speed is presented in ANW v3.10, then that would be a feature available solely for ANW users.

[Anonymous]

Hmm,

maybe we talk about different definitions? When I thought of a sub intercepting a ship I had the situation in mind, that the sub has been detected and now has to be fast.

If I was wrong ( = misinterpreted), then Herman is right and the throttle settles I proposed are too high.

What about the other existing missions like Area patrol?

[kipallen]

I seem to recall that early versions of Harpoon allowed for engineering casualties at flank speed.

[FreekS]

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

If we come to some sort of consensus then I will make an alternate speed setting or set of settings able to be activated via a switch in harpoon3.ini.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Russell, I agree with Hermans proposals of using CRUISE and CREEP as used in H3. This means there is always a suitabe mission to chose from for a designer who wants subs to move at suitable speeds. I would not use FULL for any missions.

Just one point to add; I would NOT favour implemention through the harpoon3.ini, because that would mean that the bahaviour programmed by the designer would be different for different players depending on their ini-settings. That could mean for example that a sub that the designer meant for the AI to move at CRUISE to an intercept would not get there if the player had set ini to follow the current ANW rules (CREEP). In some cases that may prevent players from meeting Vicconds or make it too easy.

Thanks for giving this attention!

Freek

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: FreekS

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

If we come to some sort of consensus then I will make an alternate speed setting or set of settings able to be activated via a switch in harpoon3.ini.

Just one point to add; I would NOT favour implemention through the harpoon3.ini, because that would mean that the bahaviour programmed by the designer would be different for different players depending on their ini-settings. That could mean for example that a sub that the designer meant for the AI to move at CRUISE to an intercept would not get there if the player had set ini to follow the current ANW rules (CREEP). In some cases that may prevent players from meeting Vicconds or make it too easy.

I can understand the sentiment, but this is already happening. Players are going to set their personal settings regardless of what the scenario designer might have set. The Accuracy/Speed slider is already causing discrepancies between what a scenario designer writes and what a player plays. Attacks that would be conducted one way for the scenario designer are carried out differently when run by the user if the slider is set differently.

Having the switch in the Harpoon.ini file would simply add to this problem.