New Mod Developed ~ Mitchell's Way

[Commander Stormwolf]

It was July 20, 1921 - -

Ostfiesland has slipped beneath the waves. A new age of Naval Aviation had begun.

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A scenario where aviation is given a higher priority in the pre-war USA is considered.

US Navy at start of war:

2 x Lexington Class carriers
4 x Yorktown Class carriers (Wasp is built as a Yorktown, as was originally planned)

Essex Carriers are built on schedule, as are a series of faster Independence Class carriers capable of 33 knots.



Aircraft: F6F is available from 1940 as the standard carrier-borne fighter of the USN.

Carrier strike squadrons ~ The Avenger is the standard attack plane of the US Navy in 1940 and is capable of dive bombing, torpedo bombing, and level bombing.

To simulate this, Scout/Bomber squadrons are provided with the TBM equipped with the 2000LB AP Bomb and the Torpedo squadrons are provided with the TBF equipped with the 22in MK 13 torpedo.

Later in the War the A1 Skyraider is presented to the Navy.

Battleships ~ The US Navy now possesses a full ten Iowa Class Battleships (North Carolina / Indiana Class are built as Iowas to provide carrier escorts.

US Air Force ~ Development of the P-38 is much accelerated, and the P-38F is available in 1940. In addition the B-17 is constructed as a long-range general purpose torpedo/strategic bomber carrying the Mark 15 torpedo (normally utilized by destroyers).



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The other side :

IJN now possesses:

2 x Akagi/Kaga
2 x Hiryu/Soryu
2 x Shokaku

2 x Shoho/Zuiho
2 x Ryujo/ Ryuho
2 x Hiyo/Junyo

Later In War:

4 x Taiho Class Carriers
4 x Shinano Class Carriers (Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Kii are built as carriers)
8 x Unryu Class Carriers
6 x Ikoma Class Carriers

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Aircraft ~

A7M Built ahead of schedule - standard IJN Fighter

J9Y4-A Carrier Based Jet Fighter introduced later in the war (may only fly from Shinano-Class carriers)

B7A Grace is standard Japanese Attack Plane -> Fitter With either 1 x 18' Torpedo or 1x800 Kg bomb.

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Modifications may be neccessary so Beta Testers are sought after.

[wdolson]

I have thought about a similar mod a few times.  IMO, if both sides realized that airpower was going to trump battleships, the Yamatos and Iowas would never have been built.  Instead, both nations would have likely built more carriers from the keel up.  If Japan's ship building industry hadn't been bogged down building super battleships, it could easily have built a few more Shokakus.

The Iowas competed with the Essexes for yard space.  As it was, the Kentucky and, I believe, Illinois, were launched early and pushed aside to make room for building more Essex class carriers.  If the Iowas hadn't been built, the US probably could have put at least 4 more Essexes in the water.

For Japan, the steel that went into the Yamatos was a big hit on the economy and their steel producing infrastructure.  The steel that went into the Iowas was a much lower percentage of the US's capacity, so there would be little difference to the steel industry if they weren't built.

If the Japanese hadn't built the Yamatos, they would have had the steel for many more smaller ships.

Bill

[2ndACR]

I would like to look your mod over. Any way you could send it to me.
 
acproincdsm@verizon.net

[el cid again]

How would you get a class of "faster independence class carriers?"

The hull is small and taxed to the limits. There is no space for more horsepower - and unless you increase waterline length - hull speed limiting factors make even vast increases of power worth almost nothing. It would have to be a larger ship - a more expensive ship - and ultimately - while that would be good for both durability and air group space - the cost would be so great one might as well build a CV. The point of the Independence is you get a cheap ship on an existing cruiser hull/machinery set - and you can change your mind during cruiser production and get more carriers. Trying for a significant speed increase forces a new hull, new machinery (or maybe different old machinery) - delays for design from scratch of a new hull. Repeat Yorktowns will look a lot better - and be available sooner.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

How would you get a class of "faster independence class carriers?"

The hull is small and taxed to the limits. There is no space for more horsepower - and unless you increase waterline length - hull speed limiting factors make even vast increases of power worth almost nothing. It would have to be a larger ship - a more expensive ship - and ultimately - while that would be good for both durability and air group space - the cost would be so great one might as well build a CV. The point of the Independence is you get a cheap ship on an existing cruiser hull/machinery set - and you can change your mind during cruiser production and get more carriers. Trying for a significant speed increase forces a new hull, new machinery (or maybe different old machinery) - delays for design from scratch of a new hull. Repeat Yorktowns will look a lot better - and be available sooner.

I have to agree. Faster Independence's CVL's isn't a viable option. They are what they are (or were) for good reason, as he has stated very well.

[DuckofTindalos]

Not really sure the Avenger would have made a viable dive bomber.

[wdolson]

The wings were not stressed for it.  If the Navy had not required that two SB2Cs fit on a carrier elevator, the SB2C would have been ready about the same time as the TBF.

Once the bugs were worked out the SB2C ended up being a good dive bomber.  It never lived down it's early reputation though.

Bill

[Jo van der Pluym]

I think that i f the US and Japanese Navy has higher priority for Naval Aviation. The other countries did also.

Australia and Netherlands had late in the forties a Carrier. In this scenario is't mayby then possible to add this on Start or mid-war.

[wdolson]

The DEI and Australia might have wanted a carrier or two before the war, but they probably couldn't afford it.  The Dutch were sort of scraping the bottom of the barrell to upgrade their air forces on the eve of the war.

Since the Australians were in the fight in Europe already, they might have been able to sweet talk a carrier deck out of the RN if carriers were seen as a high enough priority.

The US had a lot of ship yard space to build ships CA and smaller.  Vancouver, WA along produced more carrier capacity than the other navies of the world combined (all CVEs).  The US was limited in capital ship yards though.  The US cranked out Essexes at about maximum capacity throughout the war.  4 Iowas were either canceled or launch unfinished to make way for more Essex building.

The only way the US could have expanded fleet carriers any further would be to build more Independence class carriers, or something similar. 

Bill

[DuckofTindalos]

The Cockatoo Yards might have been able to build a light carrier on top of a cruiser hull, like so...

[Yamato hugger]

I could see Oz having a CVL or 2 to scout for German surface raiders.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

How would you get a class of "faster independence class carriers?"

The hull is small and taxed to the limits. There is no space for more horsepower - and unless you increase waterline length - hull speed limiting factors make even vast increases of power worth almost nothing. It would have to be a larger ship - a more expensive ship - and ultimately - while that would be good for both durability and air group space - the cost would be so great one might as well build a CV. The point of the Independence is you get a cheap ship on an existing cruiser hull/machinery set - and you can change your mind during cruiser production and get more carriers. Trying for a significant speed increase forces a new hull, new machinery (or maybe different old machinery) - delays for design from scratch of a new hull. Repeat Yorktowns will look a lot better - and be available sooner.

Its probably as likely as some of the items which get a run in some of your mods.

Keep going Commander, its good to see some Allied wet dream scenarios.

[Dili]

If you go for carrier aviation earlier then might make sense to advance one year all kind of planes due to that investment increase. If the Navy goes that way the Airforce's would not stand still.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The DEI and Australia might have wanted a carrier or two before the war, but they probably couldn't afford it.  The Dutch were sort of scraping the bottom of the barrell to upgrade their air forces on the eve of the war.

Since the Australians were in the fight in Europe already, they might have been able to sweet talk a carrier deck out of the RN if carriers were seen as a high enough priority.

The US had a lot of ship yard space to build ships CA and smaller.  Vancouver, WA along produced more carrier capacity than the other navies of the world combined (all CVEs).  The US was limited in capital ship yards though.  The US cranked out Essexes at about maximum capacity throughout the war.  4 Iowas were either canceled or launch unfinished to make way for more Essex building.

The only way the US could have expanded fleet carriers any further would be to build more Independence class carriers, or something similar. 

Bill

This is essentially correct. See The Two Ocean Navy. Another problem is steel: it is not possible to quckly change the amount of steel produced each month. Steel was the most important strategic resource after oil for both Japan and the USA. You can use steel to make a lot of different things - more factory frames - more rail lines - more rifles or machine guns or artillery pieces - more tanks - more escort ships - more battleships - more carriers - BUT any given amount of steel can only be used for one thing. So more steel for carriers means fewer something else. But even if you were willing to have less other things to get the steel - the yard capacity for large hulls is limited - and while it grows during the war - it does so slowly and not in time to permit early war large carriers in great numbers. The only way to get more ships is to use empty yard space - adopt the two ocean navy program sooner - and build more late 1930s vessels - essentially Yorktowns and Washington class battleships - and not very many of either. You could build one more Brooklyn per year, and one more Wichita - OR two of either - OR two Independence type carriers (to an earlier design) - OR two semi-carriers on cruiser hulls (which were designed but not built).
You might be able to build one Yorktown per year - and upgrade Wasp to Yorktown standard if you get rid of the later naval treaty - but then you would not have the steel or turbine sets (or probably money) to build the extra Independence or cruisers.

[wdolson]

The bottle neck for fast expansion for the US was not steel production, it was yard space.  The US steel industry was already vast before the war, largely due to the domestic automotive industry.  The US also has large deposits of iron ore that were capable of ramping up production in the late 30s.

There was an upper limit to US steel production, but it was not a critical factor in World War II.  The Japanese on the other hand had a more limited capacity to produce steel and it was a factor in ship building.  The Yamatos almost broke the back of the Japanese steel industry.

Battleships demand more steel than any other type of ship.  Carriers have less armor than BBs do.  So using yard space to build carriers instead of BBs lightens the load on the steel industry to some degree.

Bill

[borner]

Another issue is airpower. the F6F and Avenger came when they did in large part due the the engines not being better around 1940-41. You could have easily designed the airframes years early, but to get the power is another issue.
 
I do like the idea of more carriers being built. The US could have produced more Yorktowns had they put the money into it. Japan, if the Yamato class was not built, would have had the steel to build 4+ Shokaku's

[wdolson]

The P&W 2800 that powered the F6F was in development at the beginning of the war.  It was already in the Corsair, but it had teething problems.  If the Navy had recognized that the Corsair was going to have problems, they could have gone to Grumman a bit sooner and accellerated the F6Fs development, but it probably wouldn't have entered the fleet much sooner than it did because the engine needed to be debugged.

The TBF on the other hand used the Wright R-2600 which was already in mass production when the war started.  It powered many US bombers and transport planes including the C-46, A-20, B-25, Helldiver, and PBM.  Development on the TBF might have been accellerated if the Navy had made the specification earlier.

Bill

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The bottle neck for fast expansion for the US was not steel production, it was yard space.  The US steel industry was already vast before the war, largely due to the domestic automotive industry.  The US also has large deposits of iron ore that were capable of ramping up production in the late 30s.

COMMENT: While the steel industry made enough steel - one cannot use the steel for automobiles in warships in peacetime. During the war auto production was suspended - except re military vehicles - so more ships could be built.

There was an upper limit to US steel production, but it was not a critical factor in World War II.  The Japanese on the other hand had a more limited capacity to produce steel and it was a factor in ship building.  The Yamatos almost broke the back of the Japanese steel industry.

COMMENT: It was a critical factor - according to diverse analysis - see Dunnigan or The Two Ocean Navy. I repeat - steel was the second most critical of strategic resources for the USA during WWII - and interestingly also for Japan. A number of projects were delayed or not done in both countries due to steel limits.

Battleships demand more steel than any other type of ship.  Carriers have less armor than BBs do.  So using yard space to build carriers instead of BBs lightens the load on the steel industry to some degree.

Bill

COMMENT: This latter is more or less correct - provided that we are talking about carriers smaller than battleships - as in that era. Post war the US managed to build carriers bigger than any battleship - and the Midways were bigger than many earlier battleships. It is a matter of the specific ships in question. However - it is absolutely true that yard space was critical - and graving dock volume in particular. See again The Two Ocean Navy. Related is the matter of yard labor - which could be diverted from other yard activities - but only at the cost of delaying or cancelling those projects. One does not simply wish ships into existence on a given date. Further - the politics of the era make it doubtful the USN would attempt to build more ships unless it was reacting to a foreign program - which is to say that the initiative lies in that "threat" program - they started earlier and - until several years passed - it would mean they had more construction completed.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: borner

Another issue is airpower. the F6F and Avenger came when they did in large part due the the engines not being better around 1940-41. You could have easily designed the airframes years early, but to get the power is another issue.

I do like the idea of more carriers being built. The US could have produced more Yorktowns had they put the money into it. Japan, if the Yamato class was not built, would have had the steel to build 4+ Shokaku's

A 70 000 ton battleship does not yield the steel for four 30 000 ton carriers. More like two plus a little bit.

[2ndACR]

No, but 2 Yamato class BB's yield enough for 4 CV's plus a little bit.