Why the small inf teams ?

[PDiFolco]

Hello
Playing the game, I'm becoming rather discontent with the choice made of having only 4-5 men teams, even for plain infantry.
Previous CC games boasted squad-sized units of 6-10 men, now with only 4 in most teams, and 15 units max, counting leaders, vehicles and support weapons, we end up with very few infantry "grunts", (eg 10 teams = 40 men only..)
That's not enough for street fighting for example. After some combat minutes they're the first out, leaving the players no other choice than using other troops to get the VL.
That's neither realistic nor fun ... Please give us back our grunt squads !

[berndn]

I know that some mods have added bigger sized teams but because the opponent (AI or human player) has the same sized teams I don't feel that I loose them because they are to small. If I loose them in house to house fights it's most of the time due to some stupid mg team and me who just let them run into the mg fire.
Or on open ground when I simple ignored the fact that there was a tanl or infantry gun waiting for my team to show up.

[mooxe]

The advantage is less stragglers, and an easier time setting your men up against a wall or hedge to fight. But I do like having more men...

[Neil N]

Teams are basically broken down into half squads. Mooxe gives one good reason. Forcepools are basically battalion size, so you have a certain number of infantry teams. Look at it like this, given your limited infantry teams, would you rather have 20-25 9 or 10 man treams, or 40-50 4 or 5 man teams.

[Pford]

Personally I feel the smaller teams detract from the overall ambience of the game.

[Fred98]

It’s a great example of the developers failing to explain their thinking.

Look at the makeup of a typical army squad.

3 men make up a MG team

4 men make up a rifle team

And then you have the squad leader and scouts.

In Close Combat, each of these teams are separate teams. You, the commander, must bring them together as a squad to work as one team.

-

[Peter Fisla]

I have to say I would like to have full squads (based on nationality) instead of half-squads...can we mod this?

[final_drive]

I have to say I would like to have full squads (based on nationality) instead of half-squads...can we mod this?

You sure can: it's in the Team-data, but full TOE-strength 12-men US-squads will never be possible: ten men is the max limit (well in CC4 it was, wouldn't know about WaR). Also, graphically the status bar will not allow for more than seven men, and gameplay will suffer a little with teams greater than this size. You could consider an eight or nine men strong US team to represent a 'full' squad, taking into account that full strength was very rare in combat (ill, WIA, KIA, AWOL, detached,...) and have a German Gruppe (at that time around 9 men at full strength, with some differences between unit types) represented by six or seven men.

In Close Combat, each of these teams are separate teams. You, the commander, must bring them together as a squad to work as one team.

That's true, as that was the original set-up of the game, but it has been a bit of a flaw from the moment CC3 came up with larger maps, and especially from CC4 on, where you have larger Battlegroups that are still represented by this very limited number (15 max) of small-sized teams. In CC, unit sizes, team numbers and map frontages have since never really been in exactly the same scale. Still, it shouldn't keep people from enjoying the game.

[Neil N]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

It’s a great example of the developers failing to explain their thinking.

Look at the makeup of a typical army squad.

3 men make up a MG team

4 men make up a rifle team

And then you have the squad leader and scouts.

In Close Combat, each of these teams are separate teams. You, the commander, must bring them together as a squad to work as one team.

-

WWII TO&E was a little different, depending on the type of unit.

for example, a US airborne rifle squad was typically made up of 10 rifle men (2 teams of 5) and 1 M1919A6 LMG (2 man crew)

Regular Army was similar, but the M1919A6 was replaced by a BAR gunner

[squadleader_id]

AFAIK the squads/teams in CC usually represent half-teams or under-strength squads.

Examples of WW2 TO&E applicable to WAR.


The Panzer Grenadier Battalion, circa 1944

Battalion Headquarters (4 Officers, 16 men)

Communications Platoon (1 Officer, 22 men)

Supply Company (7 Officers, 156 men)

Company HQ (2 Officers, 11 men)

Medical Detachment (1 Officer, 4 men)

Maintenance Detachment (3 Officers, 79 men)

Fuel Detachment (12 men)

Munitions Detachment (14 men)

Supply Detachment (1 Officer, 36 men)

Heavy Company (3 Officers, 94 men)

Company HQ (1 Officer, 18 men)

Cannon Platoon (1 Officer, 31 men)

12-cm Mortar Platoon (1 Officer, 45 men)

Three Rifle Companies (3 Officers, 180 men), each comprised of;

Company HQ (1 Officer, 17 men)

Heavy Platoon comprised of;

Platoon HQ (1 Officer, 8 men)

Mortar Section (15 men)

Cannon Section (8 men)

Two Heavy Machine Gun Sections, each (11 men)

Three Rifle Platoons, each comprised of;

Platoon HQ (1 Officer or NCO, 6 men)

Three Rifle Squads, each comprised of 10 men

Total Strength of 852 all ranks (24 Officers and 828 men)


The Parachute Infantry Battalion, circa 1945

Battalion Headquarters (6 Officers)

Headquarters Company (7 Officers, 165 men), comprised of;

Company HQ (3 Officers, 22 men)

Battalion Headquarters Section (15 men)

Supply Section (13 men)

Communications Platoon (27 men)

Light Machine Gun Platoon (1 Officer, 46 men)

Mortar Platoon (3 Officers, 42 men)

Three Rifle Companies (8 Officers, 168 men), each comprised of;

Company HQ (2 Officers, 27 men)

Three Rifle Platoons, each comprised of;

Platoon HQ (2 Officers, 5 men)

Mortar Squad (6 men)

Three Rifle Squads, each comprised of 12 men

Total Strength of 706 all ranks (37 Officers and 669 men)

[squadleader_id]

ORIGINAL: Neil N

WWII TO&E was a little different, depending on the type of unit.

for example, a US airborne rifle squad was typically made up of 10 rifle men (2 teams of 5) and 1 M1919A6 LMG (2 man crew)

Regular Army was similar, but the M1919A6 was replaced by a BAR gunner

US Airborne Rifle Squads configuration (12 men):
Leader
Assistant Leader
5 Riflemen
2 Scouts
3 LMG crew (gunner, loader, ammo carrier)

In CC (CC4, CC5, WAR), this 12 men squad would usually be broken down and represented in the game as:
1 Rifle Squad (squad leader plus 4-6 men)
1 Scouts Team (asst leader plus 2-4 men)
1 MG Team (3 men)

[Cathartes]

Large teams are a liability in this game engine. They are easily sighted, they are awkward to move around and fit into proper cover, and they are easily decimated by enemy fire. They tend to bunch up. They quickly become half squads in combat situations.

The only advantage of larger teams is for defensive play in ambush situations where there is plenty of cover to take advantage of. It can work 'ok' in some situations.

In a perfect, future, CC world, someone will have larger maps, and more reasonable movement/coordination with larger teams. 

[Neil N]

Hey Andres, good to see you

From the Basic Field Manual

US Airborne Infantry Squad - 12 men

1 - Sqd Leader - M1/M1A1 SMG, M1A1 Carbine, or M1 Garand
1 - Asst Squad Ldr - M1/M1A1 SMG, M1A1 Carbine, or M1 Garand
9 - Riflemen - M1A1 Carbine, or M1 Garand
1 - M1919A6 LMG

Organized for maneuver as:
Able Team - 2 men(scouts)
Baker Team - Ldr + 3 men
Charlie Team - Asst Ldr + 3 men + LMG

One or more men per squad could also carry bazookas in addition to their personal weapon depending on the mission

That 3 man LMG team you mentioned would be 1 of the 4 to 6 M1919A4 LMGs that were part of the heavy weapons platoon and not part of the squad

Anyway you look at it, number of bodies and weapons representation are pretty spot on for Forcepool size.  With the Airborne as an example, Able team is gone with 1 man each being added to Baker and Charlie teams.

[Korzun]

ORIGINAL: Cathartes

Large teams are a liability in this game engine. They are easily sighted, they are awkward to move around and fit into proper cover, and they are easily decimated by enemy fire. They tend to bunch up. They quickly become half squads in combat situations.

The only advantage of larger teams is for defensive play in ambush situations where there is plenty of cover to take advantage of. It can work 'ok' in some situations.

In a perfect, future, CC world, someone will have larger maps, and more reasonable movement/coordination with larger teams. 

I fully agree! I think with all the buildings around (in contrast to CC CoI)it is better to have small teams

[jomni]

I like the broken down squads because it enables you to perform true squad tactics.

[Peter Fisla]

ORIGINAL: Korsun

ORIGINAL: Cathartes

Large teams are a liability in this game engine. They are easily sighted, they are awkward to move around and fit into proper cover, and they are easily decimated by enemy fire. They tend to bunch up. They quickly become half squads in combat situations.

The only advantage of larger teams is for defensive play in ambush situations where there is plenty of cover to take advantage of. It can work 'ok' in some situations.

In a perfect, future, CC world, someone will have larger maps, and more reasonable movement/coordination with larger teams.

I fully agree! I think with all the buildings around (in contrast to CC CoI)it is better to have small teams

I disagree, there was no such problem in Close Combat 1 with this, the engine can handle full squads well. The buildings in CC1 were large enough to accommodate a full squad. In CC2+ maps got prettier but a lot of buildings got smaller and hence the problem. The other problem is that machine guns are now deadlier since really you are attacking them with half-squads. I also have to say that CC1/CC2 interface was better than what we got today, the team monitor, squad monitor and overview maps built into the interface, now we got bunch of windows all over the place...

Anyways, I'm having a lot of fun with WAR and based on my play so far I would rate it second behind CC1. I just need to figure out how I can properly max out (7 men) for each full squad (or 6 depends on squad type I guess?) and I will be happy with the compromise.

Peter

[Moss Orleni]

ORIGINAL: jomni

I like the broken down squads because it enables you to perform true squad tactics.

I disagree!

Our H2H campaign is now in its 3rd turn, and the small teams are a real liability. There is no room for manoeuvering and tactics because your teams get wiped out in no time; the infantry simply has no staying power. Many battles quickly revert to either long range shootouts and extremely careful movement, or, when no infantry is left, vehicle shootouts.
Combined with high immobilization probabilities and the occasional super-Shermans [;)], we get the impression that the attacker (ie the German player) will have a very rough time trying advancing...
What plays to the German player's advantage though, is that due to the limited strategic map area, he doesn't even have to capture Bastogne to get a (minor) victory; a line running from Malmedy-Vielsalm-Houffalize-Longvilly-Wiltz(!) will already give you a majority of maps.

This said, we're still having a ball! The maps are beatiful, the vehicle artwork is great, the infantry weapon sounds are good (gun sounds is something different; very little variation there)...

Cheers,

Moss

Note: I didn't mention AI because team size is irrelevant; although the AI engine has improved somewhat, you can still play with it at leisure...

[Stwa]

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

ORIGINAL: Korsun

ORIGINAL: Cathartes

Large teams are a liability in this game engine. They are easily sighted, they are awkward to move around and fit into proper cover, and they are easily decimated by enemy fire. They tend to bunch up. They quickly become half squads in combat situations.

The only advantage of larger teams is for defensive play in ambush situations where there is plenty of cover to take advantage of. It can work 'ok' in some situations.

In a perfect, future, CC world, someone will have larger maps, and more reasonable movement/coordination with larger teams.

I fully agree! I think with all the buildings around (in contrast to CC CoI)it is better to have small teams

I disagree, there was no such problem in Close Combat 1 with this, the engine can handle full squads well. The buildings in CC1 were large enough to accommodate a full squad. In CC2+ maps got prettier but a lot of buildings got smaller and hence the problem. The other problem is that machine guns are now deadlier since really you are attacking them with half-squads. I also have to say that CC1/CC2 interface was better than what we got today, the team monitor, squad monitor and overview maps built into the interface, now we got bunch of windows all over the place...

Anyways, I'm having a lot of fun with WAR and based on my play so far I would rate it second behind CC1. I just need to figure out how I can properly max out (7 men) for each full squad (or 6 depends on squad type I guess?) and I will be happy with the compromise.

Peter

You can always try to Rambo that MG nest with 2 Rifle teams instead of one. This way you can prove your own theory to yourself. I'd be interested to know the results. [;)]

You know how machine guns work. Once your pinned, you gotta rely on somebody else, that's not lyin' on the ground next to you, to take em out, or to get their attention. Standing up and trying to run away (beeg team or not), usually doesn't work. [:)]

[drogon]

I will not enter the debate although I always liked to have 10 strong teams.

The positive point is this game is very easy to modify.

I am currently testing team sizes and effects on the AI.
I found that if most infantry teams are 10 strong (the maximum) it is far more balanced although you don't add more MG to either side.
A standard German team including an MG + various other soldiers works fine both in offence and defence.
For the American side I concluded that the BAR had to be made a primary weapon instead of a crewed one otherwise any US team was at a too great disadvantage form a firepower point of view.
Thus here are a few examples:
Standard German VG/basic team: 1 MG, 3 to 4 rifles, 2-3 MP40, some other weapons
SS or more elite teams: Less riffles and more SG44 etc...

US teams: Absolutely have to add at least one BAR (as a primary weapon) to be more accurate and to balance the game.

Expanding teams up to 10 takes on average 20 minutes and you have to be carefull with the numbers but it is not at all difficult

[philjat]

Drogon,

I'll be happy to mod the teams, but i'm a newbie in this, can you give the path for that ?
I known i 'll need "Wacht am Rhein Data workbook"  but when i open him, Oupsss !

Philippe