Off Topic - 9/11 & Terrorists

[rhinobones]

I posted the following on another forum. I know it is off topic, but I thought that there would be people who have strong feelings about this subjec. If you do, please post.

Regards, RhinoBones

Been away for a while, but I thought that some thoughts on this topic needed to be made. Feel free to debate, I have a thick skin.

I believe that we (the USA and the free countries) have made two strategic mistakes that now allow terrorists, militants and Somalia Robin Hoods to flourish.

1st. We should never have invaded Afghanistan and certainly not compounded the problem by invading Iraq. Just plain stupid. I did not post this on this forum, but on others I tried to make my case against committing troops to ground wars in these countries. Now my Marines and brothers from the Army, Air Force and Navy are paying the price with their lives. Al Qaeda and the Taliban could have been defeated by supporting the local populace and warlords in their endeavors to regain freedom. Freedom to us has a particular meaning, freedom to the people of Afghanistan and Iraq is a little bit different. Freedom means living a life where they can raise families, eat and enjoy the birth of a grand child. All the people really want is to be left alone . . . the form of Government is not important so long as they can live, eat and breed. This is really no different that our own lives.

2nd. The second mistake we made happened during the Clinton years and was solidified by Bush after 9/11. That mistake is that we fight terrorists and enemies of the free world by the rules expressed in the Geneva Convention. Bull shit. When attacked by terrorists we should have immediately announced that we would fight the “War Against Terrorism” using the terrorist’s rules of war. If we were fighting the war on their term we wouldn’t have contention centers full of terrorists that want to use our legal system against us, we wouldn’t be constrained by the rules of engagement and we wouldn’t be inhibited to profile, pick up and detain possible enemies. Would terrorists be so thoughtful as to give our people Geneva Convention rights? How do the terrorists show their love for our people? They make a point of beheading people. We should fight the war on their terms . . . beheading is an option.

Regards, RhinoBones

[macgregor]

Good post. I may not be as hip to the needs of the average Afghan, but my conclusions are precisely the same. War is war, and terrorism is terrorism. If we are a superpower it would stand to reason that we are superior at either one of these endeavors. We need to strike at the countries that tolerate the terrorists, or terrorism as a tactic until they no longer do so, or we will be hit again. Where do you post? Certainly not ACG.

[rhinobones]

ORIGINAL: macgregor
We need to strike at the countries that tolerate the terrorists, or terrorism as a tactic until

Let's not strike countires. Countries contain millions of people . . . how about if we just target the ones we really want to get.

ORIGINAL: macgregor
Where do you post? Certainly not ACG.

Mostly on DoD and State Dept internal web sites . . . some day down the road you will get permission to the content via the Freedom Of Information Act. As is, I can post that which does not violate ITAR or DoD regulations.

Regards, RhinoBones

[philturco]

I'm very interested in this topic. I think I understand rhinobones point and it has merit but I think there is more to the problem. The root cause of terrorism is the violation of human rights. This gives a certain "legitimacy" to the terrorists cause. I agree that the people do want to be "just left alone" to live their lives. The only form of govt. in the history of the world that does an acceptable(not perfect) job of safeguarding human rights is a democracy and it does this via free elections. Dictatorships always lead to atrocities(human rights violations) which then will trigger a struggle that has little chance to prevail in an open fight and will resort to terrorism. The average individual just wants to live "and be left alone" will tollerate the terrorists based on the logic that there is no other way to resist. In a democracy with fair elections this Hobsins choice of living under totalatarian atrocities or supporting terroristic atrocities is taken off the table. In a post 9-11 world where terrorists have to potential to strike a knockout blow(nuclear or biological) the only way to defend ourselves longterm is to drain the swamps that spawn terrorism. You cant defeat terrorism by killing all the terrorists,you must take away the legitimacy that dictatorships give to the terrorists. There will still be nut cases to deal with but those will be much easier to handle on an individual basis than what we have today where entire populations support terrorism

[macgregor]

ORIGINAL: rhinobones
Let's not strike countires. Countries contain millions of people . . . how about if we just target the ones we really want to get.

Let me remind you there are millions in Pakistan alone that have to be convinced to stop supporting terrorism and Al Qaeda in particular in their campaign to destroy our country. However we do that, I assure you it's not going to be pretty. We've made some serious mistakes. Mistakes that have cost us trillions, much of which has gone directly to our enemies. If you're insinuating that I would target the lives of civilians I'm insulted. If those 'civilians' support terrorists who target civilians then they are not civilians and they should expect retribution, regardless of what they look like. I would target that which makes these so-called civilians comfortable; their food, water, and electricity, at least until the people we want are apprehended. Let the governments that are enabling the terrorists keep them happy.
Another thing; our operations have been a goldmine for the military-industrial complex. We disperse more weapons than we seize, and we wonder why any knucklehead with an axe to grind with the US is equipped with the finest arms money can buy. We have to leave our areas of operation weapons-free. Give them the tools of peace. Let them pay for their weapons.

[rhinobones]

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Let me remind you . . .

Are you seriously trying to remind me of something I just wrote in the previous post? What planet do you come from?

Regards, RhinoBones

[macgregor]

Forget the whole post dude. I want nothing to do with you. You're going overlook the point of my post to nitpick my writing style? I thought you were capable of intelligent exchange.

[FaneFlugt]

As a Euro I partly agree with Rhinobones post.

Invading Iraq alienated alot of people in Europe. Why only iraq and not Syria or Iran or Liybia ect ect.. Was it beacuse of the oilfields? It certainly resaulted in the US administation being seen as strangely selective in their target. Not to mention the whole mess with the WMD´s that where not there!

Afghanistan on the other hand was more tolerable to the Euro public, after all the Taliban where and are out of pedogogic reach. I personally think that the toppeling of the Taliban and the fighting that is ongoing. Was and is a fight against barbarianism and i think alot of Euros agree (but we will se what other forum members might say?)

On part 2 of your post.

It reminds me of a story i was told about the hostage takings in Lebanon in the 80´s the western hostages had to endure years of imprisonment while our goverments negotiated on and on and on with the hostage takers. Eastern block hostages taken by anti communist groupings in Lebanon where free after a short period, why?

The KGB would send some operatives to Lebanon. Pay for info about the captors on the street. find their families, kidnap a relative, cut a finger off, spread the news on the street that if the eastern block hostage wasent released in 24 hours they would kill the family member. End of problem. No problem for a dictatorship but as a western democracy its unacceptable. And thats the dilemma in the war against terrorisme.