Borders and Partition Lines

[Orm]

I have trouble with that so many lines look so alike.



On this map it is difficult for me to see what is the Finnish/USSR border and what is a partition line to the Finnish Border Lands. I can't tell from looking at the map what country Hanko belong to. There is also a partition line going east from lake Ladoga. What is it for? Marking USSR part of Karelia? I do feel confused when there is no clear difference between these lines and the borders. And I do know from WIF what lines are where. I can only imagine how confused someone new to MWIF would feel when looking at them.

On this map I cannot tell if Finnish Border Lands is part of Finland or if it is USSR controlled.

Is it to late to make changes to those lines so they appear clearer? Maybe dot one of the lines or change the color? Maybe even change them when the countries border change. For example when Finnish Borderlands change from Finnish to USSR control.

-Orm

[Grapeshot Bob]

This might help clarify at least part of your questions. From Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanko

"In the Moscow Peace Treaty that ended the Winter War on March 6, 1940, Hanko was leased to the Soviet Union as a military base for a period of 30 years. During the Continuation War, Soviet troops were forced to evacuate Hanko in early December 1941."



GSB

[Mike Dubost]

In CWiF, there was a map display button that would show control of each hex (by displaying a major power flag on the hex). In my few games of CWiF against myself, I used this frequently. I think this was carried over into MWiF.

If the documentation highlights it, this would help newbies figure out which nation controls an area. This is a band-aid, but it is better than nothing.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Your screen shot is slightly out of date. We have changed the weather lines to white and might have made the country boundary lines slightly thicker.

We thought about adding some text to indicate the Hanko is part of the Finnish Borderlands but there isn't much room there for additional text. Instead we'll just mention it in the text when the rules concerning Finnish are described.

Choosing a different color or style of line for regional areas (e.g., Finnish Borderlands, Rhur, Polish Corridor) isn't really workable. There are 12 differeent terrain types for hexes so introducing new colors to superimpose over the hex terrain was very difficult. Usually there was at least one terrain type where the new color was extremely difficult to see. That was the motivation for changing the weather lines to white.

I played around with different styles of lines but ended up just adding dashed lines for use when a country, weather zone, and sea area borders coincide. That results in alternating colors when two of them coincide: country and weather (burgundy & white), sea area and weather (navy blue & white), and country and sea area (burgundy & navy blue). Using the same motif elsewhere would be confusing - in my opinion.



EDIT: typos.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is the real solution to your problem. Turning on the flags let you see who controls each hex.

The line for Karelia is necessary because there are sepcial rules concerning Karelia (as I recall it is not part of the USSR proper so partisan units can't be placed there).

[peskpesk]

ORIGINAL: Orm
...
There is also a partition line going east from lake Ladoga. What is it for?
..

Yes, me too, what is the border line used for?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

ORIGINAL: Orm
...
There is also a partition line going east from lake Ladoga. What is it for?
..

Yes, me too, what is the border line used for?

To define Karelia.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is the real solution to your problem. Turning on the flags let you see who controls each hex.

The line for Karelia is necessary because there are sepcial rules concerning Karelia (as I recall it is not part of the USSR proper so partisan units can't be placed there).

this really looks wrong to me ....karelia is part of the russia home country ... don´t know what the line means ... but it has nothing to do with partisan

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is the real solution to your problem. Turning on the flags let you see who controls each hex.

The line for Karelia is necessary because there are sepcial rules concerning Karelia (as I recall it is not part of the USSR proper so partisan units can't be placed there).

this really looks wrong to me ....karelia is part of the russia home country ... don´t know what the line means ... but it has nothing to do with partisan

I think that there is not relation to the Partisans.

As Michael Baldur said, Karelia is fully part of USSR in WiF FE (this is not like Siberia that has its own Partisan number and chances of having Partisans -- i.e. A partisan picked for USSR can't appear in Siberia and vice-versa). Karelia is on the Scandinavia Minimap, and if not playing with that option (which is not an option in MWiF), it is in 2 off-map boxes that are on the European Map. There is nothing in WiF FE that exclude it from USSR.

This has to do with the fact that the CWiF map designers assigned the USSR areas that are on the Scandinavia minimap in WiF FE, to Karelia, a Sub-Country controlled by USSR (exactly as Eastern Poland is a Sub-Country controlled by Poland, or the Ruhr a Sub-Country controlled by Germany. This might have to do with setup zones IMO, or something else, I'm not sure.

But whatever the reason, this only is a regional boundary, and I'd only wish the game to have more of them (I would like all the states from the United States, and all the provinces of USSR or the provinces of China to cite a few, have their boundaries marked on the map), but this is not schedulled to happen in MWiF 1.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is the real solution to your problem. Turning on the flags let you see who controls each hex.

The line for Karelia is necessary because there are sepcial rules concerning Karelia (as I recall it is not part of the USSR proper so partisan units can't be placed there).

this really looks wrong to me ....karelia is part of the russia home country ... don´t know what the line means ... but it has nothing to do with partisan

I think that there is not relation to the Partisans.

As Michael Baldur said, Karelia is fully part of USSR in WiF FE (this is not like Siberia that has its own Partisan number and chances of having Partisans -- i.e. A partisan picked for USSR can't appear in Siberia and vice-versa). Karelia is on the Scandinavia Minimap, and if not playing with that option (which is not an option in MWiF), it is in 2 off-map boxes that are on the European Map. There is nothing in WiF FE that exclude it from USSR.

This has to do with the fact that the CWiF map designers assigned the USSR areas that are on the Scandinavia minimap in WiF FE, to Karelia, a Sub-Country controlled by USSR (exactly as Eastern Poland is a Sub-Country controlled by Poland, or the Ruhr a Sub-Country controlled by Germany. This might have to do with setup zones IMO, or something else, I'm not sure.

But whatever the reason, this only is a regional boundary, and I'd only wish the game to have more of them (I would like all the states from the United States, and all the provinces of USSR or the provinces of China to cite a few, have their boundaries marked on the map), but this is not schedulled to happen in MWiF 1.

if the map line have no game effect ...I think we should remove it ....

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I think that there is not relation to the Partisans.

As Michael Baldur said, Karelia is fully part of USSR in WiF FE (this is not like Siberia that has its own Partisan number and chances of having Partisans -- i.e. A partisan picked for USSR can't appear in Siberia and vice-versa). Karelia is on the Scandinavia Minimap, and if not playing with that option (which is not an option in MWiF), it is in 2 off-map boxes that are on the European Map. There is nothing in WiF FE that exclude it from USSR.

This has to do with the fact that the CWiF map designers assigned the USSR areas that are on the Scandinavia minimap in WiF FE, to Karelia, a Sub-Country controlled by USSR (exactly as Eastern Poland is a Sub-Country controlled by Poland, or the Ruhr a Sub-Country controlled by Germany. This might have to do with setup zones IMO, or something else, I'm not sure.

But whatever the reason, this only is a regional boundary, and I'd only wish the game to have more of them (I would like all the states from the United States, and all the provinces of USSR or the provinces of China to cite a few, have their boundaries marked on the map), but this is not schedulled to happen in MWiF 1.

I just looked at my WiF FE maps and there is a border for Karelia on it as well. I wonder if it there once was a plan to let Finnish units enter Karelia without being counted as outside their own country or something like that. I once played a game that had some sort of rule of that affect. Could it have been WiF 3rd edition?

-Orm

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


this really looks wrong to me ....karelia is part of the russia home country ... don´t know what the line means ... but it has nothing to do with partisan

I think that there is not relation to the Partisans.

As Michael Baldur said, Karelia is fully part of USSR in WiF FE (this is not like Siberia that has its own Partisan number and chances of having Partisans -- i.e. A partisan picked for USSR can't appear in Siberia and vice-versa). Karelia is on the Scandinavia Minimap, and if not playing with that option (which is not an option in MWiF), it is in 2 off-map boxes that are on the European Map. There is nothing in WiF FE that exclude it from USSR.

This has to do with the fact that the CWiF map designers assigned the USSR areas that are on the Scandinavia minimap in WiF FE, to Karelia, a Sub-Country controlled by USSR (exactly as Eastern Poland is a Sub-Country controlled by Poland, or the Ruhr a Sub-Country controlled by Germany. This might have to do with setup zones IMO, or something else, I'm not sure.

But whatever the reason, this only is a regional boundary, and I'd only wish the game to have more of them (I would like all the states from the United States, and all the provinces of USSR or the provinces of China to cite a few, have their boundaries marked on the map), but this is not schedulled to happen in MWiF 1.

if the map line have no game effect ...I think we should remove it ....

Karelia is not mentioned in the first 24 sections of RAW, but does appear in the setup restrictions and victory point determination. Most players are unaware of it because it is in the chronologically last four scenarios: Waking Giant, Brute Force, Darkness before the Dawn, and Decline and Fall.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Froonp


I think that there is not relation to the Partisans.

As Michael Baldur said, Karelia is fully part of USSR in WiF FE (this is not like Siberia that has its own Partisan number and chances of having Partisans -- i.e. A partisan picked for USSR can't appear in Siberia and vice-versa). Karelia is on the Scandinavia Minimap, and if not playing with that option (which is not an option in MWiF), it is in 2 off-map boxes that are on the European Map. There is nothing in WiF FE that exclude it from USSR.

This has to do with the fact that the CWiF map designers assigned the USSR areas that are on the Scandinavia minimap in WiF FE, to Karelia, a Sub-Country controlled by USSR (exactly as Eastern Poland is a Sub-Country controlled by Poland, or the Ruhr a Sub-Country controlled by Germany. This might have to do with setup zones IMO, or something else, I'm not sure.

But whatever the reason, this only is a regional boundary, and I'd only wish the game to have more of them (I would like all the states from the United States, and all the provinces of USSR or the provinces of China to cite a few, have their boundaries marked on the map), but this is not schedulled to happen in MWiF 1.

if the map line have no game effect ...I think we should remove it ....

Karelia is not mentioned in the first 24 sections of RAW, but does appear in the setup restrictions and victory point determination. Most players are unaware of it because it is in the chronologically last four scenarios: Waking Giant, Brute Force, Darkness before the Dawn, and Decline and Fall.

didn´t know that .... just lost my rule guru status [:D] or something

[paulderynck]

Why is Hanko part of the Finnish Borderlands? Are we correcting RAW (more precisely the WiFFE map) for historical accuracy?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Why is Hanko part of the Finnish Borderlands? Are we correcting RAW (more precisely the WiFFE map) for historical accuracy?

Yes.
I believe that this does no harm, does it ?

[Froonp]

Also, it was already the case with ADG's initial version of CWiF, as you can see below (you can also measure all the work done on the map & counters since that time).

[bjfagan]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

ORIGINAL: Orm
...
There is also a partition line going east from lake Ladoga. What is it for?
..

Yes, me too, what is the border line used for?

To define Karelia.

I haven't played WIF in many years, but from other East front games, I believe this line serves as the limit line for Finnish forces to show how far they originally planned to invade the USSR up to and stop.

[HansHafen]

Oh wow, I like the new map better! Doh!

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Also, it was already the case with ADG's initial version of CWiF, as you can see below (you can also measure all the work done on the map & counters since that time).

Truly, the progress on the counters and map are awe inspiring. Fabulous work!

Whether conceding Hanko along with the Borderlands does no harm is hard to predict, but seems unlikely. It doesn't happen in the board game so there was no opportunity for someone to come up with some surprise strategy to take advantage of it. In real life the Finns walked back in on Dec. 4, 1941 after the Russians evacuated it two days earlier.

[Anendrue]

Are the borders and partition lines dynamic? With respect to: territory gained or lost, scenariosm and the current game date.