Japanese Subs

[montesaurus]

I would like some suggestions on maximizing Jap sub use. Other than using them for US ASW fodder. What has been successful for other Jap players besides using them for mine laying and supply boats!
Any suggiestions to make them more effective for me would be appreciated!
Thanks

[John 3rd]

My partner in our 2x2 Q-Ball has had pretty good luck in the opening of your game:  "The First Team:  Take Two"  PM him and ask or just onto our AAR and he'll respond.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: montesaurus

I would like some suggestions on maximizing Jap sub use. Other than using them for US ASW fodder. What has been successful for other Jap players besides using them for mine laying and supply boats!
Any suggiestions to make them more effective for me would be appreciated!
Thanks

There is a interesting opperation you could do with your sub fleet...

When mid 43 comes arround, move all of them (in stelth mode** = with Sub Planes to Training)
to between US and Pearl Harbour, then set up a few "picket lines" and "activate" the sub planes to look out for ships to engage.

Additionaly have moved a significant Carrier Fleet to stay between the "picket lines".. when any convoy is incomming, the subs will detect it, and once it is "large enugth" for you to show your colors, then you sink the entire convoy with the Carriers... Then Run the hell away from there... (ceap Subs in a large perimiter arround the carriers, so that you get at least a 2 day warning for any incomming enamy carrier fleet).

Then... once your back in safe bases stay there for a few months... then do the same thing over aigan.

If you dont "have afford" using Carriers for it, then two Surface Raider Groups could also work.. each could consist of
a Kongo Class Battleship with a few destroyers and a Scout Cruiser or something like that... or maby only a few Cruisers.. whatever you prefere..

I did one such opperation now recently, and the *total* kills for the Sub, Carrier and Surfece Raider Opperation was:

3 Tankers - Sunk by Surface Raider Groups
9 Cargo Ships - Sunk by Carrier Force
4 Cargo Ships - Sunk by Submarines

Own Losses is 1 Submarine.

So it is 16 Ships sunk for the loss of 1 Submarine.

Of course, you also force your opponent to add Escort to the Convoys going out from the US, and if your agressive, you might force him ceap Carrier Reserves of his own in the area.

If you cant get him to base a carrier forces of his own to the area... then just go and "destroy" the B-29 Factory in Seattle by Carrier Strikes... that will for sure make him prioritate some forces to the area anyway... [:D]

[Mike Solli]

I give my Glen carrying subs a non-agressive commander.  I don't want them to attack, just spot for the other subs.  The other subs get agressive commanders.  I usually form divisions of 1 Glen carrying sub for about 3 others that operate together.  Several sub divisions may work together looking for targets, or just as a screen for early warning.

I-121 through I-124 are minelaying subs that can carry a maximum of 50 mines each.  I use them exclusively for harassment by laying mines in enemy ports.

[vaned74]

The subs can be useful if you put the time into managing them.

1) Naval skill is extremely important for a submarine commander. Here are my observations from running a sub war versus my Allied opponent:

a) Naval skill effects contact chances - this is both ways; the sub versus the convoy target and the ASW ships back versus the sub.

b) It effects not just contact, but the target and type of firing attack made (torpedos, # fired, etc.).

c) And this is hugely important, it effects the likelihood of enemy ASW attacks succeeding. The higher the captains skill, the more likely you will see your captains avoiding enemy ASW depth charges and mortars.

d) Another observation I have made is the naval skill of the captain seems to effect the survivability of the sub when damaged. Without fail, when I have forgot to change my captains out and send a sub to sea, if it gets hit, it seems to only grow in flotation damage. This survivability is strongly relatesd to (c) above - most subs will survive a single depth charge hit; some even two. I have brought subs back from the eastern Pacific to Japan several times with two depth charge hits (the Allied Mk 9 DC, while accurate doesn't pack a lot of punch).

2a) Increasing contacts. Multiple subs or Glen plane sighting along a target path tend to help. Subs will shoot at passing ships; actually this is your best ploy - if a convoy is moving 2 hexes; what you really want is to have sighted them before the movement phase and then have your attack sub 1 hex away.

2b) Avoiding ASW TFs - the convoy passes over your hex, your sub shoots, the ASW close escort only takes a passing shot. This is important versus the tactic of multiple escorting or sweeping ASW TFs ahead or trailing a target convoy. Why? The ASW TFs pretty much automatically search for any targets in the hex that they end a movement phase in.

3) Stay at least 8 hexes from Allied air bases. ASW patrol is worthless past about 7 hexes as it halves the groups range - so a B24 or PB4Y with a range of 14 hexes on ASW patrol is maxed out at 7 hexes. Naval search at longer ranges is not that effective either unless you have hundreds of bombers searching.

4) Stay on the move, my favorite tactic is bouncing from convoy route to route at cruise speed. Plot your moves such that a sub hits a target hex you want it in for a phase and continues to move onward. This greatly reduces the effect of air search and ASW task forces (unless they miraculously manage to be on your same path AND at your same speed).

5) Use the night, if you must end a movement phase in a target hex; make it be at night. The Allied (except British) night skill levels are less than day. ASW forces execute their attack functions with DCs and Hedgehogs using their crew skills. Night crew skills for the US are generally low versus day.

6) Understand the differences in sub classes. Which ones are good for attack and surviving ASW counterattacks? For high value targets that are passing (speedy convoys or large convoys with good escorts) you want subs that can fire salvos of 6 torpedos at a time. Also, durability is very important. A highly durable sub is good at surviving attacks - remember it is generally the second and third DC hit that kills and if the first hit does a lot of system damage to a sub, it will be hit more frequently by follow on salvoes. So, you want to avoid hits, and then also have the hit, if it happens, be against a survivable hull so that sys and float damage are low.

7) Speed - is critical. Fast subs produce more contacts.

8) Range - Japan has some very long range boats, endurance 30,000. Use these to be places the Allies don't expect. Also use them to replenish other subs.

9) Altitude on the Glens - 6,000 is too low. Higher altitude seems to produce more contacts, but not high quality contacts. Quality is not as important as having generated the contact in the first place with subs though.

10) Packs - multiple subs ready to react to all possible sighted task force move directions. Multiple single sub TFs in a hex will generally yield a higher chance of an attack. Once an attack is made, it is more likely for other subs to attack the convoy in future hexes.

11) Separation - go for damaged ships. Generally, one torpedo hit will not sink even a weak merchant ship. However, often times it will do enough to separate it from the convoy. Seek to kill these damaged ships as opposed to tracking the main convoy.

12) Expectations - set them low. Do not expect to kill lots of ships. If you ultimately get a return in pure sub to ship warfare (with no supporting arms) 2 kills per sub lost is doing really well.

13) Radar - if your lucky and your mod includes a few radar or schnorkel equipped subs, they have a higher chance of contact with a passing convoy.

I could go on but I think that's enough for now.

[FeurerKrieg]

I use my for scouting/pickets.

Also, I try to put several in the 'return lanes' of enemy ships that will be assaulting one of my bases. Some enemy ships will always get shot up by CD guns or hit some mines - my subs try to get those ships when they split off to head home for repairs.

On exception is in the early war I actively hunt with my subs because the oceans are full of damage ships running away from the growing Empire. Usually though, but late Spring 42, anything that is going to escape has done so and I begin to save my subs then for more combined fleet ops.

[JeffroK]

Ships transitting bases usually use the same routes. Especially coming out of the Panama channels.

Get out your little planning map and plot these routes and you'll have a better chance of finding ships away from ports and bases.

[montesaurus]

THanks guys, this will be very useful!