insurrection corps broken in 1.05

[ndrose]

Playing as Russia against AI, I invaded Austria and triggered an insurrection corps. But all that happened was that my first corps had to stop movement--all others could move through, and no actual insurrection corps popped up, and no battle.

Mantis 447.

[DCWhitworth]

I have replicated this with two non-AI nations.

[Mardonius]

That is all that should happen, I believe. The Austrian receives the two corps as reinforcements during his next reinforcement move. This change makes these two corps an asset, rather than a liability, for the Austrian.

[ndrose]

I'm sure this is a result of the work to improve the insurrection corps, but it doesn't seem to be working right.

On my land phase, it stopped my first corps but let the others through. Then nothing--even on Austrian reinforcement nothing showed up.

I haven't tried this yet playing as Austria. Possibly the mechanics are OK, but the AI just hasn't figured out yet how to use it effectively. Though I would question whether the mechanics can be OK if it lets subsequent corps through. (It should be able to let some corps through, THEN stop, but I understood Marshall to say that would be tricky. I don't think it should be able to stop one, then let the others through. Or perhaps it is--even worse--not able to stop the others.) Also, should it be able to stop movement at all if it's not going to call up the corps?

[DCWhitworth]

From the online rules - "The Austrian player will now have the ability to set an area as an “Insurrection Trigger” area. This is done by selecting the “Insurrection Toggle” button in the lower left phase button panel. This will enable an area as a trigger or disable (If already enabled) the area. The Austrian player may set up to 3 areas as Insurrection trigger areas. These areas will immediately halt any enemy movement when the units enter the area. At this time then ALL Insurrection units will become available for placement during the next reinforcement phase. Any area in Austria’s home nation can be set as a trigger area as long as the Insurrections corps are not placed or ready to be placed. All insurrection areas will be shaded in white and will only be visible to the Austrian player!"

Tried it with a non-AI Austria and yes the two insurrection corps are available to place in the next reinforcement phase, but not in the triggering area, only where you could normally place reinforcements.

[ndrose]

So it sounds as if there are two separate issues: letting through the subsequent corps, and the non-placement of the insurrection corps. But since you were able to do the latter as human Austria, it's just an AI problem. (Unless the AI simply chose in this situation not to place them--is that allowed if you've stopped movement with the insurrection toggle?) That leaves the letting through of subsequent corps. Are you seeing this also?

[Mardonius]

Dave:

Where (and when) is the Austrian Insurrection Button found?

Thanks
Varick

[DCWhitworth]

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Dave:

Where (and when) is the Austrian Insurrection Button found?

Thanks
Varick

It's on the second page of buttons in the diplomacy phase. i.e. you have to click the arrow at the end to reach it.

[RJCowan]

I am in a PBEM game as Austria.  The game was started in 1.04.07 and migrated to 1.05, then 1.05.03.  (The game is being used to train our recent converts, so we're being very forgiving of the peculiarities we've seen, and just carrying on.)
 
My Insurrection Area button tells me, regardless of which area I have highlighted, that there are already the maximum three areas chosen.  Nothing toggles off.  I have found no way to determine which areas are toggled on for Insurrection (is there supposed to be an indicator?).
 
Has anyone else seen this, or is this just one of the oddities due to upgrading to 1.05.03? 

[Mardonius]

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

Tried it with a non-AI Austria and yes the two insurrection corps are available to place in the next reinforcement phase, but not in the triggering area, only where you could normally place reinforcements.

I tried the stop areas and they show up as white, per the description. However, in a test I ran with a non-AI Turkey versus a non AI Austria, no invading unit stops and nothing showed up in the next Austrian reinforcement phase.
Looks to be a bug, unless I misunderstand something.

best
Mardonius

[ndrose]

I tried a game with non-AI Russia and non-AI Austria. I got the same results with respect to movement as I got in the earlier (vs. AI) game: the first corps to enter the trigger area had to stop movement, but subsequent corps could move through and past the trigger area.

I was able to place the insurrection corps, but they're not listed as reinforcements--just available if you bring up the units screen. And you can't place them just anywhere; as David noted above, they're subject to the normal reinforcement rules: you can bring them up in a nearby city, but not in an empty rural area.

The rules about where they're brought up are not a bug, I guess--just a deviation. They actually give the Austrian a fair bit of flexibility.

But they don't seem to be stopping movement as they ought to. Unless there's some "stop X number of corps" setting that I overlooked, and which defaults to 1.

[ndrose]

Marshall, you have this listed on Mantis as resolved--normal behavior. I understand that placing the insurrection corps in the reinforcement phase is the way you've implemented it. (The AI doesn't seem to be actually placing them, but I guess that's another issue.)

However, the insurrection trigger area does not seem to be stopping movement as it should. Is that not a bug? When I try it, it only stops a single corps. And from what Mardonius wrote above, I gather there may also be cases in which it isn't stopping any.

[Marshall Ellis]

That is still normal. This was not meant to stop all forces since the actual insurrection trigger in the board game is an option after each corps is moved each area. I have allowed the setting of 3 stopping areas which gives a good border perimeter of protection and allowance for placement. Does this make sense? It is certainly an approximation but I think it is better than our earlier default which would lead to the slaughter of the insurrection units.
 
I will look at the AI placement...

[ndrose]

So the trigger area is supposed to stop the movement of the first corps over the line, but then let the rest through? OK, but I'm not sure I understand why. In the boardgame, there was some point to stopping only the *last* corps or two, because you could fight them right away on their own. But if you're putting down the corps in reinforcement, you can't do that.

You could if Austria were moving first in the land phase, but most likely invaders will be able to restack before Austria moves. Russia and Turkey move earlier, and France can.

However, if this is the way you meant it to operate, and it's not buggy, I guess the question of whether it could be improved is not top priority.

[Marshall Ellis]

The trigger area will stop the first corps coming in BUT you can set the trigger areas to wherever you want in Austria so you could set them to allow an invader to come into the nation or at the borders. Is this not an improvement of the old 50/50 method of an insurrection corps being dropped (by itself) on a spot with enemy corps? I thought it was an improvement but tell me if you do not think so...
 

[NeverMan]

It's a BIG improvement, but it still takes away A LOT of power from the original EiA insurrection corps. Being able to cut supply and forces off from each other was always a big deal, not to mention slower Turkish forces into Austra particularly when Au is at war with France.

[ndrose]

It's definitely an improvement. And I can see how in a pbem system it's extremely tricky to try to duplicate things like this that were done by a real-time decision. I think there might be ways in which the insurrection corps could be given back some of the capability to cut off the enemy. But that can be worked on incrementally in later patches. For now, as long as it's not behaving in unexpected and unpredictable ways, I'm satisfied.

On reflection, it does do at least some of what it should. If the invading army wants to restack, it has to slow down for the stopped corps to catch up. If it doesn't, the insurrectionists can jump on the lagging corps. Austria can also place them in a position to cut supply when the invaders have moved on.

Again, as long as it's behaving predictably, which I'm persuaded it is, it can be playtested and suggestions made later.

[NeverMan]

Would it be useful to be able to have the Insurr. Corps pop up on the number of corps that have passed through the area? For instance, a box that indicates "2" would mean the Insurr. Corps could pop up on the 2nd corps passing through that area in a land phase?

Something like this should be very easy to implement and would at least give the AU more control.

[Marshall Ellis]

I am open to tweaks.
 

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I am open to tweaks.

I just don't see how it's going to hurt to add something like what I have mentioned. I don't think that giving the user more options that closer resembles Empires in Arms is a bad thing, particularly if it's easy to implement, which this should be.