Worth getting the original BTR or a similar game?

[Sarconix]

As someone with some interest in the strategic air offensive (1942 - 1945) featured in BTR... is it worth getting the original BTR now, or waiting for the new version? Can the bugs / issues alluded to here be overcome and still have an enjoyable game? Will the new version be removing any features from the original?

On a related note, about both versions: This looks like WITP in the air, with the love-it-or-hate-it micromanagement that goes along with it, so it might not quite be for me. Is that true? Are there any other games that cover the strategic air offensive, either in the Matrix library or elsewhere?

Thanks!

[sauro brusch]

wait, yhe game is scheduled for the release in spring... I hope

[Alfred]

Sarconix,
 
The original BTR does require micromanagement, but not to the same level as does WITP.
 
In BTR:
 
1.  logistics is hardly present and what there is, cannot be manipulated by the player,
 
2.  the Axis production model is far simpler than that of the Japanese in WITP,
 
3.  the role of HQs and leaders is quite muted in comparison,
 
4.  the player only has to deal with air units, rather than trying to co-ordinate the activities of air, land and sea units
 
Whether you buy now or wait until the upgraded product is available depends on how long you think the interval is.  Personally, I think the wait will be longer rather than sooner.  Also if you can acquire BTR now, you probably can do so on eBay for a small amount and it would be good training for you and reduce the learning curve on the upgraded product.
 
Alfred

[Sarconix]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The original BTR does require micromanagement, but not to the same level as does WITP.

Thanks for the details. I'll keep an eye out for a copy of it, but I won't expect much: there don't seem to be many copies of it around.

[kaybayray]

Sarconix,

Get a copy, Dont Wait.... [8D]

Not many copies available bacause this is an awesome game. Even with bugs, problems and whatever it will still wrap your brain around the axle of Strategical and Tactical Doctrine. The only downfall from my perspective is that I will probably pass away from old age before I actually complete a full campaign. I average about 1 Day of the war for every 1 to 2 weeks of actual time. But I dont mind because it is a very intriguing game IMHO.

If you can get a copy do so and start learning. It is not a trivial game in any respect and IMO well worth the wait for these guys to rebuild it. BTW, contrary to some of the Drive-By-Posters they have acomplished quite a lot of work and have been sharing it with us. They have also been extremely helpful and open on helping us just figure out how to play it.

Later,
KayBay

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: kaybayray


... The only downfall from my perspective is that I will probably pass away from old age before I actually complete a full campaign. I average about 1 Day of the war for every 1 to 2 weeks of actual time. But I dont mind because it is a very intriguing game IMHO. ...

Later,
KayBay

KBay;

You can speed the game-planning up tremendously by allowing the "staff" to make up raids. The player plans just the "important" raids.

For example:
Autumn '43, the XII & Med Air Forces is where the action is. So do those manually.
Let Fighter Command, IX AF, 2 TAF, & VIII AF be assigned missions by your "staff".

As '44 begins, the VIII AF dominates and Italy stablizes around the Gustav Line. Do VIII AF manually and let XII & Med AF's be planned by your "staff".

2 TAF & IX AF will be the center of attention in May '44, etc... etc...

TS

[kaybayray]

TechSgt,
If I started letting the AI manage my forces then the game would quickley lose the intrigue for me. The major attraction to this game for me is the challenge of managing such a vast array of forces and equipment, defining strategic goals, building tactical doctrine based on those goals, assessing results and modifying both strategic and tactical doctrine accordingly to defeat the Luftwaffe.

You see it takes me so long to review results and build the next series of missions because that is what I really like about this game. I really dont want a cartoon game, that would be extremely boring to me and I would not pursue it. This game makes me really look at what happened or what didnt happen with respect to what I planned. I then analyze it and determine what to do next and then continue on. The fact that it is such a huge challenge is what I like about it most. If all I want to do is drink a few pints and have a sandwich then I will play something like Steel Panthers World At War. Which is an awesome game as well in its' own genre.

But I have read much about WWII and the Strategic Air Campaign in Europe has been a major intrest to me most of my life. This game allows me the opportunity to experience at some level the challenges that that represented for the men that were actually involved in it.

So I am not really complaining about how long it takes to play out the game. I am taking so long because I am getting so wrapped up in the playing of it. I am just making the observation that at my current rate of completion it will take me about another 15 years to actually complete a game. Which will be nearing my expected life span. [8D]

Later,
KayBay

[Derfel]

A problem with the old game is that it is not supported anymore.
There is a privately issued patch 1.05x6 and also an order of battle 1.06A, which you cannot get anymore unless the original owner surface from limbo and send them to you.
I have been able to get the newest patch but are stuck with anOOB 1.03X11, missing many new features and corrections of errors that was corrected in the later OOB's.

[kaybayray]

Yes I am running that patch but I do not have any other than the original OOB's. However I dont think that really makes any difference for my game play. For me it is not so much the particular units as it is managing the entire Air War. So I am struggling learning the mechanics of how to do what I decide to do. I guess the biggest hurdle is just learning how to gather up the resources for any particular mission and then actually put the mission I have planned in my head into the game so that the two are the same thing. Making a lot of learning mistakes along the way.

So I tend to read a lot from this forum on how to actually use the game mechanics to do that which I have planned. I also post and ask how to do things when I cant seem to figure that out. So when the Matrix version comes out with everything cleaned and fixed up I should be a much better commander. [8D]

At any rate I am having a lot of fun learning.

Later,
KayBay

[Derfel]

The updated OOB also introduce new or modify planes, equipment and fixes errors in the placement of targets.
Having an updated OOB will change the way you play.

Happy gaming

[byron13]

Just running a test post. Good day to all.

[TechSgt]

KBay;

I mentioned this for three reasons,

1) The AI will do missions you might not have thought of. What I mean is; escort altitudes, sweep timings, types of aircraft used, etc. By examing how the AI sets up missions will help to learn "tactics". Be prepared for some really dumb missions though.

2) Mundane tasks such as "target type" recons can be swiftly plotted, (ie, I want to recon ALL of the OILS targets).

3) The last reason is because you can speed up play ALOT! Years ago I wanted to get into the post D-Day period, but starting a D-Day campaign without the invasion prep was not to my liking. So I started a '43 campaign and cycled through a bunch of AI - Staff turns first. Next thing you know the Allies are wading ashore, and I took over management.

BTW: I don't think the AI will do Intruder missions? The old version that is!

TS

[kaybayray]

TechSgt,

Thanks, I didnt think about watching how the AI would put missions together. I will give that a shot and see what I can glean from it.

I didnt realize I could set all of one kind of target to be recc'd and the AI would do it. This is nice little tidbit. [8D]

I do realize the a new OOB would clean up some mistakes and make different AC available to me. But at this time I dont see that that will really make any major changes in my game play. You see for me I know what I want to do. However I am still learning how to make the game do what I have planned in my head. So until I can learn how to use the interface and exactly how the mechanics of the game it self are used to implement my plans having new AC isnt really important to me. Yeah I am sure that there are some targets that are messed up in the mechanics that a new OOB would fix. However I have not yet encounted a target that the game would not let me hit.

An example to make my point.

Using BC for night raids and intruder missions. I want to attack Essen in strength. I also want to build a corridor for my bomber streams to fly through that is covered by my night fighters to intercept the Luftwaffe intercept. I also want to place intruders at bases that I have determined that are operating night fighters. I know when my bomber stream will launch and when they will be at target. Based on that I can estimate when Luftwaffe assets will intercept and when they will RTB. (Having Time known at waypoints would make this much easier. Now I am using Trig and Algebra to estimate) So my problem is how to I take this from my head and use the game mechanics to do it. That is what I have been working on. Thanks to a lot of help from many in here I am getting much better but have a long way to go. [8D]

Another example.

Using 8th AF assets to strike Western Europe. I want to hit several industrial targets such as Rail, Power, Factory (whatever kind, doesnt reallymatter), etc.. that are clustered in a relatively small area. To soak off Luftwaffe intercept I want to run pre-strike Sweeps, I want to also include Seduction missions before the strike force crosses the enemy coast to thin them out and draw them away from the focus of my strike. So in my head I have all the timeing, alts, and mission/tactical doctrine worked out but now I need to use the game mechanics to put what I am planning into the game and make it happen. My ability to do this is directly limited to my understanding of how the mechanics work. So thanks again to many in here I am doing much better now but still have far to go. [8D]


My overall point is, that I do believe that I have good sound strategy and tactical plans but where I have trouble is converting that to actions in the game. Thanks to you and many others in here I keep learning new things that make that much easier. [&o]

Later,

KayBay

[Hard Sarge]

BTW: I don't think the AI will do Intruder missions? The old version that is!

you saying the staff ? if so, yes, you can plot Intruder with the Staff, if AI, from the complaints from the Germen players, I think it does ?

Seduction missions, ohhh, I like that name

oh my, succubi Squadrons  I like it

[kaybayray]

Hard Sarge. LOL !! [:D]

Seduction Missions [8D]

Way back before I ever found this game I had a keen interest in the Strategic Bombing campaign and had read quite a bit about the various types of missions and strategies. One that I found that was used a lot in the early stages were "Seduction Missions". Typically this was Bomb Group possibly escorted by fighters that would cross the channel and fly along the coast of Europe or to targets along the coast and then continue along the coast to draw Luftwaffe assets out over the channel and away from the path of the actual Strategic mission or missions for that day.

The idea being that a portion of the Luftwaffe could be drawn away from the flight path of the main raid for that day allowing the main force to be intercepted by a much overall smaller force. It was also hoped that this would cause some confusion to the Luftwaffe response as well. This tactic was also used to draw the Luftwaffe out into the channel where the Allies could engage with equal or superior numbers and attempt to destroy Luftwaffe AC and Pilots. I have read many accounts of these types of mission and they were not quite as successful as they were hoped to be but on occasion did do very well.

In BTR you cant do Seduction missions with Bomb Groups as they must have a target to bomb. You can do this with Fighters but I dont know how successful they might be. I am sure there is some threshold of force size to allow an intercept to be launched by the Luftwaffe.

At any rate this is a very intrigueing game and very difficult. Hopefully I will be somewhat proficient at it when you guys release the Matrix Version. [8D]

Later,
KayBay

[Hard Sarge]

I know what you meant, I call those decoys, that is why I said I liked it

when the number of B-24s were small, they used them alot for this, fly out to the North sea

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

BTW: I don't think the AI will do Intruder missions? The old version that is!

you saying the staff ? if so, yes, you can plot Intruder with the Staff, if AI, from the complaints from the Germen players, I think it does ?

Seduction missions, ohhh, I like that name

oh my, succubi Squadrons  I like it

Yeh, I messed up that post. [:-]

What I meant was... the 2 TAF, IX, & XII AF's AI will not plot intruder missions. They do sweeps since they're primarily a daytime force.
I'm use to "feints", but there is something about "Seduction Missions". [;)]

HS

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

Hard Sarge. LOL !! [:D]

Seduction Missions [8D]

...

In BTR you cant do Seduction missions with Bomb Groups as they must have a target to bomb. You can do this with Fighters but I dont know how successful they might be. I am sure there is some threshold of force size to allow an intercept to be launched by the Luftwaffe.

Later,
KayBay

KB;

Seduction Missions can be "simulated" with Bomb Units.
Just pick a coastal target -- airfield or radar, approach the coast, fly along it, bomb the target, and then head out to sea. Use the inbound and outbound waypoints to your advantage.

There is a timing element to this, that is the tricky part. If you can time the arrival of your escorts -- or a fighter sweep! -- to one minute before the axis planes arrive...

The problem with "engaged" sweeps strafing flak fortresses isn't present over the ocean, and the best part is... most Axis pilots are not rescued when they go in the water!

TS

[kaybayray]

TechSgt,

I didnt know that about the Luftwaffe pilots in this game. Thanks, that will come in handy. [8D]

Yes I did realize that you can target a facility close to the shorline but what I meant was you can not run a true seduction mission with bombers without hitting a target in the game. B-24's were typically used early in the campaign and would troll along the coastline waiting for the Luftwaffe to respond. [8D]

Later,
KayBay

[Hard Sarge]

I didnt know that about the Luftwaffe pilots in this game. Thanks, that will come in handy.

well, both sides have a chance to be picked, normally better the closer you are to your own coast

(in the stats, most of those lost at sea, or picked up by the wrong side for the Axis are the MIA's)