Cap

[Hans-Brink]

Hi

Some questions about CAP


1) Why does only a single HQ fighters engage when several shoud do?

2) Is the CAP-range, the same as normal range for a fighter?

3) What decides which HQ's fighters to intercept a specifik raid?

4) Lets say that 3 HQ's close to each other has set their fighters to perform CAP. Then why don't they all intercept enemy interdiction/airfield attack on one of the mentioned HQ's?


Thank's in advance
Hans

[Die Kriegerin]

Good questions Hans, doe's "The Man" know?... I just had an airfield attacked twice, with 100 fighters and 100 bombers. Even thought I had 400 fighters on CAP there, 400 fighters on CAP at a HQ 2 hex's away, and 800 fighters on CAP at another HQ 2 hex's away, I got mauled. 1600 aircraft on CAP and only 100 intercept each time. Is there to much Vodka at the front or what?...I'm playing the Soviets, with experence ratings between 57 to 68, and it was raining.

Questions on CAP: Interception vs Vodka

1) How big a part does experence play?

2) Does Leader rating play a factor?

3) How does weather play a part? Does it effect both side equally?

4) What are the programed odds for clear, rain, snow, and blizzard?

5) How about the interception range?

6) Does transfering them there the previous turn effect it?


Jon

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Hans-Brink
1) Why does only a single HQ fighters engage when several shoud do?

That is part of the design. GG did this deliberately. I don't see an easy way to "fix" this either, in fact, I don't think its broken. Trying to calculate all fighter groups within their range of a unit, and doing so for every combat, would be very difficult and expensive to do. Much more importantly though, doing this could easily mean that other armies in combat later in the phase might not have fighter support for their own missions, because their fighter units exhausted their readiness flying CAP for other armies nearby earlier in the turn. This seems to be most important to me. I don't want my fighter unit from my panzer corps wasting their energy defending an infantry army's airfield nearby which only has 2 airgroups assigned. I want that fighter to fly escort for the bombers during combat to assist my panzer units.

2) Is the CAP-range, the same as normal range for a fighter?

Yes, except for fighters in West Front, OKH, and OKW HQs. Fighters there have a longer range to represent being spread out in Germany itself to protect against strategic bombing from the west. This range advantage only applies to interceptions of western bombing missions.

3) What decides which HQ's fighters to intercept a specifik raid?

Experience and weather. AFAIK, readiness only decides how many planes show up for a fight, not whether the intercept itself succeeds.

1) How big a part does experence play?

A large part. Experience is why German airgroups with 30 or 40 planes can consistenly beat Soviet airgroups with twice or three times the number of planes.

2) Does Leader rating play a factor?

No.

3) How does weather play a part? Does it effect both side equally?

Weather reduces chance of fighter interception, and affects both sides equally AFAIK.

4) What are the programed odds for clear, rain, snow, and blizzard?

I'll ask Arnaud.

5) How about the interception range?

Same range as the fighter type.

6) Does transfering them there the previous turn effect it?

They can't fly the combat phase of the turn they move, but the next turn there is no effect.

[RickyB]

One thing regarding CAP. It is limited to 7 hexes I believe, no matter what the fighter range is. I just ran a test of this and a unit at 8 hexes had no fighter coverage. The special Axis HQs as Ed mentions have a special range for strategic bombing only, I think.

Also, on a slightly different note, weather impacts numbers of planes flying for each side differently, with the Germans having a smaller percentage of their planes flying in all but clear weather I believe. This affects all of their missions though, rather than CAP coverage, and as Ed says does not impact the likelihood of interception or anything else, just the number that will fly.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by RickyB
One thing regarding CAP. It is limited to 7 hexes I believe, no matter what the fighter range is.

Hmmm, Rick, use Campaign '41, move the 3rd panzer army HQ to 26,34 via rail. This places the HQ exactly 10 squares from the 39th panzer corps at 29,24 at the extreme range of the Bf-109. On the Soviet turn plot attacks on the 39th panzer corps. Everytime I do this in clear weather a small number of the Bf-109s do intercept. They intercept whether they're on CAP or Escort. Now, if I move that HQ one space to the south, out of the Bf-109 range, no fighters intercept at all. I think the 7 square limit is something that was discussed by us at some point but was never implemented by Arnaud for some reason.

Also, on a slightly different note, weather impacts numbers of planes flying for each side differently, with the Germans having a smaller percentage of their planes flying in all but clear weather I believe. This affects all of their missions though, rather than CAP coverage, and as Ed says does not impact the likelihood of interception or anything else, just the number that will fly.

Thanks, I didn't know weather effected the number of planes in addition to success or failure of the intercept. I always thought experience did that. Wait a minute, does experience affect the number of planes also?

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn



Hmmm, Rick, use Campaign '41, move the 3rd panzer army HQ to 26,34 via rail. This places the HQ exactly 10 squares from the 39th panzer corps at 29,24 at the extreme range of the Bf-109. On the Soviet turn plot attacks on the 39th panzer corps. Everytime I do this in clear weather a small number of the Bf-109s do intercept. They intercept whether they're on CAP or Escort. Now, if I move that HQ one space to the south, out of the Bf-109 range, no fighters intercept at all. I think the 7 square limit is something that was discussed by us at some point but was never implemented by Arnaud for some reason.

Hi Ed,

I would guess that you have bombers supporting the corps also, in which case in ground combat the fighters will support the bombers out to full range, as i have seen that. I did test it before I posted to make sure of the range, and at 8 hexes neither Fw190As at 14 hexes or Bf109Gs with 12 hex range intercepted an interdiction attack. To do this, try just launching a Soviet interdiction attack on the korps anywhere beyond 7 hexes, rather than a ground attack (I assume from your comment about plotting attacks you mean actually plotting ground attacks rather than interdiction attacks). You should not have any fighters intercept no matter what their status or range. As the Soviets I have frequently taken advantage of the range limitation when the panzers push too far forward, causing heavy losses.

Now if you are getting interceptors against just interdiction attacks, then something odd is happening between our two tests that we need to check out.

[Die Kriegerin]

Thanks Ed, however I think you misunderstood questions 1 & 5, let me rephase them.

1) Is a unit with an experence level of 60%, less likley to intercept, than one with 90%? If so, is there a ratio?

5) Is a unit 4 hex's away, less likely to intercept, than one 2 hex's, or say, at thier own base? If so, is there a ratio?

I also have a question about your answer to Han's question 1.

So, If the Soviet player moves a HQ to an area, not having any ground units attached to it, with the sole intention of bringing heavy fighter support flying CAP, with no ground attack aircraft, WIR is programed to hold some of those units back for escort??? Madness!!! If so, is there a ratio?

Now for the dumb question, what is AFIAK?

Thanks
Jon

[Ed Cogburn]

To Rick:

Belay my last. My brain ceased functioning for about 30 minutes there. It seems the 7 square rule was implemented, I just conveniently forgot about it.

Can you remember why interception was restricted to 7 squares? It seems to me the restriction should be half or two thirds of the planes normal range. As it is now, the longer range of the better fighters is not being taken advantage of by the game. I know you've probably played GG's Pacific War, and seen just how much more active the P-51 squadrons were due to their long range.

Originally posted by Die Kriegerin
1) Is a unit with an experence level of 60%, less likley to intercept, than one with 90%? If so, is there a ratio?

A unit with an experience level of 10 will almost never sucessfully intercept. With 90, they almost always intercept. As for the ratio, only Arnaud knows that.

5) Is a unit 4 hex's away, less likely to intercept, than one 2 hex's, or say, at thier own base? If so, is there a ratio?

From my experience, the chance for an intercept is not changed by distance, but the number of planes intercepting is modified by distance. This is fairly easy to test.

I also have a question about your answer to Han's question 1.

So, If the Soviet player moves a HQ to an area, not having any ground units attached to it, with the sole intention of bringing heavy fighter support flying CAP, with no ground attack aircraft, WIR is programed to hold some of those units back for escort??? Madness!!! If so, is there a ratio?

I don't remember this question, but I've never seen the game hold back a fighter or fighter group from an interception. I just tested this, and all fighters and fighter bombers intercepted every time.

Now for the dumb question, what is AFIAK?

AFAIK="As far as I know"

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn
To Rick:

Belay my last. My brain ceased functioning for about 30 minutes there. It seems the 7 square rule was implemented, I just conveniently forgot about it.

Can you remember why interception was restricted to 7 squares? It seems to me the restriction should be half or two thirds of the planes normal range. As it is now, the longer range of the better fighters is not being taken advantage of by the game. I know you've probably played GG's Pacific War, and seen just how much more active the P-51 squadrons were due to their long range.

I believe the game has always acted this way, but maybe not. It was never an item of discussion in our group anyway, and it seems like at least in 1.13x which I last played before the upgrades it was the same way, but that has been a few years so maybe I am wrong. Actually I just gave it a try and sure enough at 8 hexes there was no fighter coverage, so it has been in the game since the very first.

[cimamc]

I have a more general question. It appears only one air group actually intercepts using CAP as opposed to multiple air groups when assigned to escort. Plus escort defends bombers on offense. So I find it better to just keep all fighters on escort duty. Since I haven't spent as much time testing, does anyone have a different view with findings? Thanks. Mark

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by cimamc
I have a more general question. It appears only one air group actually intercepts using CAP as opposed to multiple air groups when assigned to escort. Plus escort defends bombers on offense. So I find it better to just keep all fighters on escort duty. Since I haven't spent as much time testing, does anyone have a different view with findings? Thanks. Mark

Cimamc

Hmm. Are you sure? If i put 3 x 200 FW190's on cap in West front 450+ will intercept. The same goes for Frontal cap groups. (in my experience).
This is in games previous to WiR 3.2
If the CAP system has been changed then Allied bombing just got serious.

Loki

[Die Kriegerin]

If I understood Ed right, the ability to intercept is determaned by your units experence. 60% experence, 60% chance to intercept.

Jon