Disciplinary Action relating to events on the Thread

[Erik Rutins]

[See page #636 of the Thread and the previous pages for context. Posting this in a separate thread as well to make sure it's not missed.]

I find myself having to once again waste time remind adults how to speak with each other online. If it sounds like I'm annoyed, you've reached the correct conclusion. There are only so many hours each day and every one I spend on this delays something else that's far more important.

First, the forum has rules. Those rules apply everywhere on the forum and to every user. The rules have a letter and they have a spirit. The letter is obvious to all, the spirit is perhaps less so, but equally important and depends on a moderator's judgement. Most importantly, it's generally quite clear that the people who violate the spirit but not the letter of the rules are quite aware that they are trying to exploit a loophole while achieving the same results.

Second, the moderators cannot be everywhere, reading every post at all times if we still want to get our work done. For this reason, we are not (at least I'm not) as well acquainted with the "history" of some posts, threads or users as some of the more avid forum posters are. This can cause us to "under moderate" or "over moderate" depending on the circumstances. It's often hard to find the perfect balance.

Third, there have been plenty of warnings regarding behavior both with respect to the Thread and various posters involved in this latest flare-up. Therefore, I'm going to err on the side of "over moderation" to get my point across clearly.

Three posters have been awarded one week bans as a result of what happened here. Japan, Terminus and Dixie are all on vacation from the forum. They are all welcome to e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com when that week has passed in order to have their forum access restored.

Japan, I believe you are a WITP player and I would prefer that you stick to discussing WITP. You've brought politics and strong personal views into various threads in the past and caused problems with that as politics are against the forum rules. I'm sure that you are personally upset with some of the other posters as a result of these exchanges, but that doesn't allow forum rule violation. In this case, after I did further research into your posting history and previous run-ins, it seems clear that your post a few pages back, while not violating the letter of the rules, was intended to provoke a response that would violate the rules. This kind of attempt to inflame discussion violates the spirit of the rules. If you can restrain yourself to discussing WITP and using the green button to ignore posters that you feel the need to provoke, you'll get along much better with everyone.

Terminus, after I communicated to you via PM that Japan's minor trolling was best just ignored while it was at a low level, you went ahead and posted a comment that could be interpreted two ways. The first interpretation is as a beyond the pale statement of political history which would violate the forum rules. The second interpretation is a personal attack, which would violate the forum rules. Either way, it breaks forum rules that you are very well acquainted with. You should have known better.

Dixie, your response to Japan was unacceptable. Changing a single letter in a four letter word or using asterisks to transparently disguise your clear intent while achieving the same effect is a blatant violation of the spirit of the forum rules as well as the letter. Your tirade in response to Japan while at the same time endorsing Terminus' personal attack is a good example of how forum members should _not_ behave. I haven't seen anything like this from you before, so I hope we won't have a repeat ever again.

I'm disappointed in all three of you and I'd like to remind everyone that there are no waivers for the forum rules for anyone under any circumstances. I'd also like to remind everyone that the more time I spend on this (and I had to involve some of the AE team leads in this as well to help me research the history and figure out what exactly happened) is time I'm not spending on helping to get AE ready for release.

Regards,

- Erik

[AW1Steve]

Fair enough. Since I feel that I too contributed to the problem , I'll take a week+ "vaction" as I feel that I was just as responsible for what happened. I'm sorry for those who's toes that I stepped on. So I'll join the others in taking , as I feel that I am as guilty as they are. Thank you. [8|][:(]

[EWGuttag]

One Eric to another Erik,
 
Thanks for your intervention here to bring wisdom and reason to insanity and chaos.  Opinions are one thing, politiics something entirely else.  I've come to this forum for opinions (not politics), plus some fun (and understanding better what the Pacific War was about, as my late father-in-law served in the 7th Division).
 
So far, I've enjoyed the WitP forum immensely (and the feeling comraderie and willingness to help newcomers like me enjoy this game, which was a great birthday present).  I'm looking forward to enjoying this forum (along with the one for Guns of August which I also have).
 
The best of luck to you on the AE upgrade.

[Nemo121]

Erik,
 
I have a question as someone who isn't part of The Thread at all and has no issue with what was done by you there ( In fact I think Terminus was running wild for a long time prior to this ).
 
My question is prompted by the banning of Japan for what I think is best described as "incitement"... Basically I've been on forums before where when someone would be spoiling for a fight the person who they chose to fight with ( who might be ardently defending an unpopular view ) would also end up banned for "incitement".
 
To be fair the mods would usually ban the "inciter" when this person was saying something they didn't agree with whereas "incitement" would be allowed if it was something they agreed with. In that case it would be viewed as "sharing an opinion".
 
 
Anyways, I don't see this playing of favourites or supporting of particular partisan viewpoints here BUT it ALWAYS makes me uneasy when someone is banned for "incitement" or "violating the spirit" of the rules as it seems a bit of a slippery slope.
 
I'm not trying to continue any fight or spark anything up again and I think while many people would disagree with quite a few of my views  most would agree that I am always in favour of letting people's opinions be expressed no matter how I disagree with them or their views BUT I was wondering if you could outline how you might decide when disagreeing fervently goes over the line to incitement.
 
E.g I have green buttoned one person on this forum and that's Terminus as I find most of his responses to anything I direct at him to be needlessly rude and inflammatory BUT it strikes me that by using a lax interpretation of "incitement" I ( and others ) could find myself/ourselves being banned for doing nothing more than refusing to be cowed into agreement by the loudest voice in the room ( not necessarily Terminus ... I simply mention his name to explain why I immediately thought "uhoh" when I saw that Japan was banned in addition when it was Terminus who actually violated the letter of the rules ).
 
FWIW I can see that going into the Thread and not green-buttoning him wasn't exactly the smartest thing to do BUT we don't jail a woman who gets raped for wearing a short skirt or accepting a spiked drink from a stranger and we don't jail a man who wears the opposing team's jersey into the Home Team's stand during a game when he gets the living you know what kicked out of him. One can argue about the judgement in both of those cases but it is one thing to be silly and exhibit poor judgement and its another thing to get the same punishment as the person who assaulted you.
 
I'm not seeking to incite a major fight here but I do think that clarifying the dividing line between disagreement and poor judgement ( which won't get you banned ) and incitement ( which rightly will get you banned ) would be beneficial to the community.

[Erik Rutins]

It's taken on a case by case basis, with no favorites played regarding users or their viewpoints (as much as that's humanly possible). There was a prior history with Japan in other threads, which you may or may not be aware of, just as there was a prior history with Terminus. I've already heard from Japan by e-mail and he agreed that the decision was a fair one.

Regarding the risk of being banned due to "incitement", I think anyone who's been in this forum for a while knows that banning is rare and that the forum is, if anything, "under moderated".

Regards,

- Erik

[Nemo121]

Aye, they are rare. I've only seen a handful in about 3 or 4 years. On the other hand I'm still deeply uneasy at the precedent of banning someone for "incitement".

'Tis your decision of course and your forum but I still think it is a dangerous precedent.
 
Speaking as a mental health professional the amount of "incitement" an individual needs before blowing up is greatly related to that individual's mental health and current mental state. Thus you could have someone explode simply because someone very reasonably disagreed with them.
 
Conditions which could cause this could be any psychotic disorders, any hypomanic or manic episode, borderline personality disorder ( particularly emotionally unstable type ), hystrionic personality disorder, anankastic personality disorder and quite possibly schizoid and schizotypal personality disorders.
 
In those cases ( which would account for more than 10% of the adult population ) the "incitement" could really be trivial and a banning for "incitement" would be completely out of proportion. That's one of the places that my concern comes from.... not out of any allegation of bias HERE but from the realisation that, generally, we live and interact at the mercy of the LEAST emotionally stable of those with whom we interact.

[Mac67]

@Nemo

Speaking as someone who is well known to be not on Terminus's Xmas card list, I have to say in all fairness that he has been post-stalked by Japan for a while now.

If there is any collateral damage here it is Dixie. His uncharacteristic outburst was prompted by Japan's continual harassment within the Thread. I understand that use of bad language here even when hidden behind *'s is against the rules, but I do see those rules being broken all over this forum without any action being taken. Given Dixie's good character and the decent way he has always conducted himself here in the past, I feel that some leniency could have been shown given the circumstances, rather than him being made an example of.

[Nemo121]

Mac67 --- Aye, I bow to others' greater knowledge of the Terminus/Japan spat. Still though, it makes me VERY wary and plants the idea that if someone stands by their position in an argument and the other person "loses it" and breaks the rules that the first person could be done for incitement.
 
 
FWIW I agree that Dixie's banning is a pity but given what he said (albeit asterixed ) it was pretty inevitable. It's sad all round.

[Mynok]

I would agree with the under-moderated issue. I also would suggest that if Japan's trolling had been dealt with sooner, the other bannings would not have been required....well, maybe T would have done it again. [:D]

Nothing unfair done here, but if some of the moderators in the community had to power to timeout people who are trolling like that, it would be of great benefit and keep things from escalating as they did. Busy admins are perfectly understandable. Just suggesting a possible way to get more "boots on the ground" if you will.

I can promise you that it was the post-stalking and trolling that got people mad, not Japan's viewpoints. He had been green-buttoned long ago by most of the folks in the Thread. If post-stalking and trolling aren't against the forum rules they certainly should be.

[Mac67]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Mac67 --- Aye, I bow to others' greater knowledge of the Terminus/Japan spat. Still though, it makes me VERY wary and plants the idea that if someone stands by their position in an argument and the other person "loses it" and breaks the rules that the first person could be done for incitement.

I can see where you are coming from, but I think it is down to the Mod to use common sense and to look at the posting history between the two parties concerned. In this case I think Erik got it right in banning Japan too.

FWIW I agree that Dixie's banning is a pity but given what he said (albeit asterixed ) it was pretty inevitable. It's sad all round.

I think it was a mixture of frustration, annoyance and lack of sleep that prompted him to say what he said. It is sad, I can't think of anyone here least deserving of a ban.

[wworld7]

Mac67,

Erik pretty much made it clear how Matrix expects people to act using Matrix's forums.

And simply put (in my words) is:

1) If you can't say something without vulgar language, insults and/or other childish behavior DON'T post.

2) Stay away from politics or DON'T post.

3) Discuss games and thing related to them or DON'T post.

4) Forcing Erik or any other moderator to police here in the WITP forum DELAYS the completion of what many of us are waiting for.....WITP-AE.

I am guilty at times of acting childish, but you will never see me use vulgar language in a post on this site. As I know young people stop by and it is important to keep things clean.

Many people seem to think it is a right to post what they want. It isn't, it is Matrix that provides and pays for the hardware. IMHO, many people forget this or don't care.

That said, I want WITP-AE to be finished. So let's keep it family friendly people, PLEASE.

[Nemo121]

Ah, it seems there was more to the incitement than the relatively harmless posts I saw... There was a pattern of posting. That sets my mind re: the ban a bit more to rest.

[Erik Rutins]

One more point so that we're all on the same page. Once Japan, Terminus and Dixie return, the idea is that they've paid their dues and get to start over. I don't want to see things pick up again right where they left off, provided they keep to the straight and narrow.

[mdiehl]

Speaking as someone who is well known to be not on Terminus's Xmas card list, I have to say in all fairness that he has been post-stalked by Japan for a while now.

Sure, but certain Thread regulars will routinely chum the water long after one of these incidents has died down. It's pretty predictable that Mynok would draw his gun and start shooting at Japan (vice "troll" see below) now that Japan's unable to shoot back.

That said, I agree, the green button works best.

In Post 19089 of The Thread, Mynok wrote:
Unfortunately, the troll will be back in a week as well.

[bobogoboom]

the guy has been deliberatly trolling the thread and his avatar is a troll. plus he has done the same things over and over.
 
you need to get a life.

[mdiehl]

If post-stalking and trolling aren't against the forum rules they certainly should be.

They are, but that hasn't led anyone to ban you or Terminus before:

In post 16069 of The Thread, Mynok wrote:
And well deserved. He's either an idiot or an mdiehl clone.

In post 16071 of The Thread, Terminus wrote:
Or an idiotic mdiehl clone... Completely identical to the original...

In post 16072 of The Thread, Mynok wrote:
Seems strangely redundant.....

In post # 9292 of The Thread, Terminus wrote:
Mdiehl sent me a PM, telling me to tell you: "Thank you for last night, Darling. It was wonderful..."

My point being that Mynok and Terminus are princpal and habitual offenders. My other point is, Erik, that you have covered for Terminus for a LONG LONG TIME. I don't see why institutional memory has to be erased merely because you sent Terminus to the showers for a week.

[mdiehl]

the guy has been deliberatly trolling the thread and his avatar is a troll. plus he has done the same things over and over.

Possibly. But he's not doing anything more excessive than has been Terminus' habit for a long time.

you need to get a life.

[8|]

[stuman]

Hmmm, we do not need to mention any of the forums members and the word showers. Don't want bad visual vibes.

[mdiehl]

OK. Lightening up now, sir!

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

the guy has been deliberatly trolling the thread and his avatar is a troll. plus he has done the same things over and over.

Possibly. But he's not doing anything more excessive than has been Terminus' habit for a long time.

you need to get a life.

[8|]

yes while t has done stuff that gets him banned. he does not stalk people.