Bug or am I crazy?

[Misconduct]

I caught the Musashi by Rabaul in my 3rd turn of the 43-46 campaign, by chance a PBY found it and my next turn I put most my Aircraft at port moresby to Naval Attack / Port Attack Hoping they would take a crack at the Giant.

Well sure luck I hit the ship with 22 bombs and 5 torpedoes. Did Not Sink. My question is how does it not sink after that much damage? Sadly I am not sure what kind of bombs hit it, was a giant raid over 75 aircraft.
Now its possible since I lost contact with it after that turn, it limped into Rabaul for repairs, however my recon did not show a BB there. Neither did the port to north/west of Rabaul. I don't think it could of made it to Truk after that kind of damage, possibly someone can shed light.

[wdolson]

The real Musashi took 17 bomb hits and 19 torpedo hits in the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea.  I think the Yamato took a few fewer torpedo hits to sink her, but on that attack, the TBM crews were instructed to drop all their torpedoes on one side of the ship so as to overwhelm the ship's armor on one side.

Wikipedia article on the Musashi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Musashi#1944:_Combat_and_Loss

Bill

[rtrapasso]

in the game, bombs and torpedoes have about 1/2 the effect they did in real life... for instance, most AKs (at least early in the war) would sink quickly after 1 torpedo hit... in this game it takes 2 on average (and some days)... same with bombs...

Of course, the game also doubles the chance of a bomb to hit (but not torpedoes, i think).

[Xxzard]

and thats for the Japanese...

[n01487477]

Are you sure she is still afloat ? There is FOW after all ...

[Misconduct]

Yeah sadly she's still up, checked my logs she didn't sink yet. Would be a prize so far, biggest I sank was a Tanker by a sub.

[RUPD3658]

500 LB bombs bounce off of Jap BBs like .50 cal rounds off of a Tiger tank. The torps may have hurt her but the bombs likely did little more than scratch the paint.

1000 LB bombs are a different story

This is from one of my PBEMs. Both ships survived all these 500 LB bomb hits to bombard the next turn but were then sunk by 30-40 1000 LB bomb hits and multiple torp hits.

Day Air attack on TF at 44,63


Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 15
SB2C Helldiver x 58
Spitfire VIII x 27
Kittyhawk III x 15
P-47D Thunde x 44


Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 2 destroyed, 24 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Musashi, Bomb hits 7, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 5, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 44,63


Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 24
P-38J Lightning x 156
PB4Y Liberator x 48
B-24J Liberator x 178


Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y Liberator: 7 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed, 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 36, on fire
BB Musashi, Bomb hits 23, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 44,63


Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 86
P-51D Mustang x 36


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 7, on fire
BB Musashi, Bomb hits 9, on fire

[rockmedic109]

It will take 30-60 days before it shows up on the sunk list.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

Day Air attack on TF at 44,63


Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 24
P-38J Lightning x 156
PB4Y Liberator x 48
B-24J Liberator x 178


Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y Liberator: 7 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed, 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 36, on fire
BB Musashi, Bomb hits 23, on fire

Exactly why I refuse to play a game where 4E bombers are allowed on naval attack.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

in the game, bombs and torpedoes have about 1/2 the effect they did in real life... for instance, most AKs (at least early in the war) would sink quickly after 1 torpedo hit... in this game it takes 2 on average (and some days)... same with bombs...

Of course, the game also doubles the chance of a bomb to hit (but not torpedoes, i think).

In real life, the pHit for a VT ranged between 10% (most) and 25% (highly trained Japanese aviators in 12/41). The pHit for a dive bomber was typically 20-25%. Level bombers had a 4-5% pHit for a single hit per aircraft (not per bomb). The damage from a torpedo hit was enough to sink a large modern destroyer about half the time. Around three VT hits to sink a CA; 4 to sink a CV; 6 to sink a Midway class CVB (5 on one side); 7 to sink a 35000 ton modern BB; 9 for an Iowa; 13 for a Yamato. Note CVs had about 2/3rds the resistance of a gunship of the same displacement. WWI ships were about half as resistant to hits. A penetrating hit by a 250 kg bomb was worth about half a torpedo. Damage scaled as the 2/3rds power of the warhead weight.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

Day Air attack on TF at 44,63


Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 24
P-38J Lightning x 156
PB4Y Liberator x 48
B-24J Liberator x 178


Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y Liberator: 7 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed, 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 36, on fire
BB Musashi, Bomb hits 23, on fire

Exactly why I refuse to play a game where 4E bombers are allowed on naval attack.

That was a primary mission. Unfortunately, the game overstates the pHit.

[rtrapasso]

The game does not accurately model 4E naval attacks (imo)...

There are a few problems:

1) Neither the Allies nor the Japanese were foolish enough to get their big warships into easy range of concentrated high-altitude bomber airpower... that the players routinely do so and then get their heads handed to them is at least partly a reflection on the difference between playing a game and handling forces in real life.

2) That being said, as mentioned, the hit percentages from bombing at altitude during daytime attacks are way to high, however, i think this is by design (the designers (i think) made a deliberate decision to swap off bomb effectiveness and bomb hit rates to enhance the excitement of the game.)

3) At least USAAF 4EB WERE ship killers during the war - but not as the game portrays them... they killed ships by delivering bombs from low altitude (1000 feet or less) at NIGHT using radar... such attacks are generally not possible in the game. Most of these attacks that resulted in sinking were generally on thin-skinned targets.

4) There are way too many aircraft including 4EB available in stock... playing CHS or other mods that try to stick to historical limits drastically changes the feel of the game in this respect (the 4EB vs. shipping part of the game)...

Anyway, the interactions between these factors can get very complex... i think players need to think about what they want from a game (excitement? fun? playability? historical accuracy? something else?) and decide on what mods and house rules they want to play with.

Be aware that the first time you try a mod/set of house rules, it might not be to your liking, and so try out something else if it doesn't suit you.

[John Lansford]

Merchant ships especially are way too resistant to both bombs and torpedoes.  They had little to no watertight compartmentalization, and few of their crews were trained in serious damage control.  Even a 250 lb or 500 lb HE bomb would leave them with uncontrollable fires or unrepairable damage, and a torpedo hit was almost always fatal unless it was a large ship.
 
Same with most warships larger than a DD as well.  I hit Shokaku with 23 500 lb bombs early in my 1942 campaign; she stayed afloat because not one of them penetrated the deck armor.  I also hit one Aoba with 1000 lb HE bombs in that same attack; she got away as well.  Hiyo, OTOH, took more than 20 500 lb bombs and sank, probably because she was a converted liner and had little to no deck (flight deck?) armor.
 
But, I've seen 1000 lb AP bombs result in no penetrations on both IJN CA's and non-Yamato class BB's, to the point that only the sheer weight of ordinance hitting accomplished anything, not that they were penetrating and doing actual damage.  The rare 2000 lb bombs carried by LBA were so infrequent I can't remember when or if any of them were actually used against warships.  Merchant ships yes, especially around Rabaul, but not warships IIRC.

[herwin]

Morse and Kimball indicate that bomb casualties were about 1/3 as serious as torpedo casualties for cruisers including sinking. It took about six weeks to repair the average bomb casualty and about 40 weeks to repair the average torpedo casualty ignoring the sinkings. Also most of the cruiser sinkings due to bombs were due to the mining effects of near misses.

They also give information about CW merchant vessel casualties during the first year of the war. When AA was not fired, the pHit for bombing at low level was 13% (71 attacks, 304 bombs dropped, 39 hit, 18 ships sunk). When AA was fired, the pHit for bombing was 8% (155 attacks, 632 bombs dropped, 50 hit, 16 ships sunk). Note that AA on merchant vessels was completely ineffective at shooting down aircraft, but it did protect the ship.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Merchant ships especially are way too resistant to both bombs and torpedoes.  They had little to no watertight compartmentalization, and few of their crews were trained in serious damage control.  Even a 250 lb or 500 lb HE bomb would leave them with uncontrollable fires or unrepairable damage, and a torpedo hit was almost always fatal unless it was a large ship.

Same with most warships larger than a DD as well.  I hit Shokaku with 23 500 lb bombs early in my 1942 campaign; she stayed afloat because not one of them penetrated the deck armor.  I also hit one Aoba with 1000 lb HE bombs in that same attack; she got away as well.  Hiyo, OTOH, took more than 20 500 lb bombs and sank, probably because she was a converted liner and had little to no deck (flight deck?) armor.

But, I've seen 1000 lb AP bombs result in no penetrations on both IJN CA's and non-Yamato class BB's, to the point that only the sheer weight of ordinance hitting accomplished anything, not that they were penetrating and doing actual damage.  The rare 2000 lb bombs carried by LBA were so infrequent I can't remember when or if any of them were actually used against warships.  Merchant ships yes, especially around Rabaul, but not warships IIRC.

The Shokaku had main deck armour below the hangars. She also had closed hangars, which seriously aggravated the effect of bomb hits. The kill mechanisms for IJN carrier casualties were uncontrollable fires or flooding, not bomb damage. Her Coral Sea damage was fully repaired in two months; her Santa Cruz damage took 4.5 months, but that included a refit. I don't think the ship repair model would be that fast.

[Misconduct]

Its quite possible the warships are bomb/torp resistant simply because the lack of them in the game, if a ship capsized in 1 torp hit it would cause the game to be unbalanced so easily causing a game to end sooner then later.

Possibly I don't know game mechanics but it would be unfavorable if you could lose a CV to a single torp hit especially early in the game.

[RUPD3658]

I have lost BBs to single torp hits. It is all a die roll

[Misconduct]

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

I have lost BBs to single torp hits. It is all a die roll

Thats terrible, I can understand however a hit to a magazine would blow a BB in half, Perfect example of Die roll would be just now my 4th turn I had the SS Seawolf put 4 torps into an AK and it did not sink, the Tuna puts single torp into a Tanker and it sinks. Its possible the game mechanics are accurate, as the 4 torps did not hit anything vital, yet the one into tanker could of hit a vital area.

I did notice earlier someone had a screenshot of the musashi getting hit in the magazine and sinking. Pretty neat really, I have had the unlucky roll of hammering the musashi and it walking away with 0 damage lol.

[Shark7]

Keep in mind that I managed to save BB Fuso after 4 torpedo and about 6 bomb hits early in the war. And Fuso is certainly not as durable or well armored as Musashi is. Battleships are the sponges when it comes to bombs, just absorbing them and moving on, and it generally takes about 7-8 torpedoes to sink one.

[John Lansford]

There isn't a single example in the entire war of a warship surviving 4 torpedo hits (other than Yamato and Musashi, and there's some room for argument even there).  A normal AK should have blown sky high from 4 torpedo hits, assuming all four did strike and detonate that is.  Even large tankers had difficulty in surviving that many torpedo hits, and they were the most compartmentalized of any commercial ship.
 
While I'm not in favor of an automatic "one torpedo, one sunk AK" in WitP, I do think that all categories of ships are much more resistant to damage in the game than their historical counterparts were.  We've all seen AK's take 2-3 torpedo hits and make port, while I doubt there have been more than a handful of ships sunk with just one torpedo hit in my game.
 
As far as major warships not sinking from one torpedo hit, the captains of Kongo and Taiho would like to disagree with you.