Ottoman build time and cost

[Mus]

Hey I understand the reasoning behind increasing the build time and cost, but was curious what exactly the time penalty was and if you tested with other (lesser and greater) amounts of cost and time penalty before settling on this?

100 extra money per development in particular really hurts. And whats the build time increase? Double?

Ouch.

[:@]

Just wonder if a less drastic penalty could have prevented the problem of an ahistoric Ottoman economic superpower without handicapping them this severely.

[dude]

The build time for the Turks is increase partly because the Feudal Dues.  The higher the setting the longer it takes to build developments.  If you lower the Feudal Dues it will decrease the build times.
 
In the Advanced economy you can raise or lower this (with major impacts to your national moral).  In the Simple econ it's fixed and uses the default in the scenario files.  For Turkey it can take over 40 months to upgrade a development while GB may only take 25 or so months to do the same thing. 
 
Also if I recall for the advanced econ the amount of roads in the province also impact the build time... if your development is greater than the number of roads I belive the time is doubled(?).  Don't remember if the amount of money required is increased too.  I'm also not sure if this is figured in for the simple econ.
 
 

[Mus]

Nope the turks have a specific penalty to their build time and pay a 100 money premium on the cost for developments.

[dude]

I modified the Feudal Dues setting for the 1820 Balanced scenario so the Turks had the same rating as GB and now my build times are identical to the Brits I had played previously.  So I know that does impact the rate that the developemt gets built at.
 
 

[Mus]

The slow turk build rule might not be in effect in the balanced scenario.

From the appendix, pg 12:


"Ottoman Builds Are Slow [font="garamond premr pro,garamond premr pro"][font="garamond premr pro,garamond premr pro"]–The Ottoman player suffers a penalty to development build time."[/font][/font]

Beyond a longer build time every development costs 100 extra money which isnt mentioned.

This rule reads as a penalty on top of the effects of Feudalism, which work the same for every country.

My question, aimed mostly at the Developers, was if they played around with different levels of penalty before settling on this one? It seems like the build time is more than double and on top of that 100 extra money it is painful for even minor amounts of development. Was wondering if the goal of preventing a late game Ottoman economic superpower couldnt have been accomplished with a bit milder penalty.

[Kingmaker]

HiHi
 
Mus, a Warning, in case you ain't come accross it either in a game or seen it posted on the MB's, be very, very careful should you wish to go down the redusing Fuedal levy route, it can impact severly on national happiness, an eg from my (limited) experiance I altered FL and it went from +40 to -271, and falling, in 1 turn!
 
All the Best
Peter
 

[Hard Sarge]

Mus

do you really think that something like this wasn't talked about, debated and tested, and reworked ?

I think I can honestly say, that I bet Eric and Crew, hope to never see another post in the Beta Forums with Ecc in the title

I will say, that overall, I tried to stay away from the Ecc discussions (other then to read and see what is going on) but also think, I got well over a couple of hundred Ecc posts in there myself

[Mr. Z]

I'd like to try giving the Ottomans a bit more cash and see what that does, but the general idea was to severely restrict Ottoman development, to avoid the Ottoman Superpower possibility--while we think it's a fun idea, the general consensus for CoG1 was that the Ottomans should be kept within their historical parameters and role, i.e. a weak, declining power, struggling to defend against their immediate neighbors. But we could give them a little more freedom than that, if there is a call for it.

[dude]

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

I'd like to try giving the Ottomans a bit more cash and see what that does, but the general idea was to severely restrict Ottoman development, to avoid the Ottoman Superpower possibility--while we think it's a fun idea, the general consensus for CoG1 was that the Ottomans should be kept within their historical parameters and role, i.e. a weak, declining power, struggling to defend against their immediate neighbors. But we could give them a little more freedom than that, if there is a call for it.

... which is why it's great that we can mod most of the files to play the way we want to have the fun we want. I gave everyone more equal morale and money and it's been fun for me.

However, if there is some sort of penalty being applied to the Turks then I'd like to see that as a value in a file or on an options page to override. I missed that line Mus shows above about the build time penalty for the Ottoman player.

I think overall there are a lot more things that could be put into Options or a file for modification. In my current game I didn't realize it that the enemy units were getting bonus damage points! I just happened to check a combat report during a detailed battle and saw the AI units were being given bonus damage points for the difficulty level. Now I wouldn’t have a problem with this but I assumed “Normal Difficulty” meant no bonuses to anything… If these values were in a file that could be modified that would be great.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Mus

do you really think that something like this wasn't talked about, debated and tested, and reworked ?

No Im just curious what other values you guys tested with. Like did you guys try 50 extra money and extra build time and you still had Turkish superpowers emerging in games?

And can somebody tell me actually what the current penalty is? Is it 100 extra money and double time required for development? 100 money and time and a half? Would be nice to know. The manual says theres a penalty but doesnt actually tell you what it is and doesnt even mention the extra money developments cost.

The 100 extra money per development is the one that really really hurts. I think the goal of preventing them from becoming an economic superpower is great, just wondering if something this drastic was required.

I mean I think theres a difference between taking measures preventing them from developing into an ahistoric economic superpower and totally gimping them to the point they might as well not be a major power in the game. I havent yet played long enough to decide what this rule accomplishes, just long enough to feel the pain from the rule.

[;)]

[ericbabe]

For Turkey, all developments take 6 months longer and cost an extra $100.  The time increase should be in addition to any feudal penalties that they have.  From what I've read about Ottoman history, a more historic rule would have been to let the player pay for developments normally and then have that money simply disappear [:)]

We've already had people (on other forums) complaining about the too "powerful" things that Turkey can do, so there are at least some people out there who still think we didn't "nerf" them enough.  I'd love to hear more feedback on the economic rules though.

A more powerful Ottoman variant scenario would be fun to add.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

We've already had people (on other forums) complaining about the too "powerful" things that Turkey can do, so there are at least some people out there who still think we didn't "nerf" them enough.  I'd love to hear more feedback on the economic rules though.

Well we havent played long enough for me to get a Feudal levy yet, so I cant comment as to their overall power, I just wanted to build one province up to 5 barracks so I could make Corps and get another province up to 3 factories to build arty... and paying 2x100 money plus normal costs and having them each take like 40 months before development labor was added in really hurt.

I will give more feedback further in.

PS Could you link me to peoples comments on other forums regarding how Ottoman is too powerful still? I would love to read their reasoning and see what supposedly makes up for the economic gimping so I can play intelligently.

[dude]

I'm curious too how other regard the Turks as too powerful... especially if they feel the current rules don't cripple them enough.  I must be doing something wrong then when I'm playing them.  Or is it they just feel the AI player Turks are too powerful?  Because I sure didn't see it while playing them under the current rules. [:)]

(PS... this is why I feel a lot more data should be opened up for modding... just because a few people found something easy... you shouldn't make it difficult for others that don't... let us be able to modify the values that control some of this. I know some of this is doable on the game setup screen but there's no information on just what is being gained/lost at each difficulty level or power setting.)

[ericbabe]

It was at Alt Wargame Historical.  I don't have the link handy.  The crux of the complaint was that the Turkish fleet could leave the Mediterranean and could actually win naval actions against other fleets.

[dude]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

It was at Alt Wargame Historical.  I don't have the link handy.  The crux of the complaint was that the Turkish fleet could leave the Mediterranean and could actually win naval actions against other fleets.

.... note that this is not directed at you ericbabe... but... SO what??? [:D] If people want a historical recreation of the Napoleonic wars... read a book, it will have the same outcome each time. I've always viewed games like this as what if's. That's like saying all WWII games must have the allies land at Normandy because that's what they did historically.

If GB, Spain, or France allows the Turks to get out of the Med then they deserve to get beat. Now if Turkey is smart they would ally with one (I usually pick the Brits for obvious reasons...) and really improve their chances.

If there's a complaint then put an option in that prevents the Turks from leaving the Med... there's so many things like this that should be just that... an OPTION... not hard coded into the game. That will take care of both camps... those that want to recreate the exact outcome of the wars... and those of us that want to try some what if's.

What, where the major players (France?) actually worried they might lose if the game was not limited to the exact parameter's of the historical events?

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

It was at Alt Wargame Historical.  I don't have the link handy.  The crux of the complaint was that the Turkish fleet could leave the Mediterranean and could actually win naval actions against other fleets.

LOL.

Wow to that.

Do they realize that the game also allows France to pursue a naval build up strategy, allows France not to do really stupid things like engage in two major fronts at the same time, etc?

I mean, if thats the basis for a complaint...

[Hard Sarge]

okay what is so HARD about running Turkey ?
not the best troops in the world, and then 2 Generation troops are nothing to bragg about, but they are improving

my buildings still pretty much suck, but money is starting to flow in, and I am getting my trade routes started

once you are able to get your waste under control, Turkey starts to be able to do something

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

okay what is so HARD about running Turkey ?

Never said it was hard, and I even admitted I had only played a few months of it in a PBEM game so far and would respond back as to how it was long term.

What I said was I wondered how many different versions of penalty, higher or lower, were tested before 100 money and whatever the time penalty was (since learned from eric its 6 months) settled on as the solution to the Turkish economic superpower problem. I still havent heard anything about that.

My gut is the penalty is too severe for Turkey to be competitive with major powers controlled by other intelligent humans, but I will see how it plays out.

[Gil R.]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

It was at Alt Wargame Historical.  I don't have the link handy.  The crux of the complaint was that the Turkish fleet could leave the Mediterranean and could actually win naval actions against other fleets.

Here's the link, for those who missed it:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys ... 64ef?hl=en#

[Hard Sarge]

going good

got to admit, got to keep my treaties flying, just got a off a Treaty as Russian was about to hit me, and now just stopped France/England and Prussian from ganging up on me