What is grand strategy?
The planning and execution of military operations that cripple the enemies military power or his ability to wage war.
So, how do you do that?
For me, since I've been a financial adviser, the answer is risk versus reward.
The goal is to capture enemy territory. How and where you do that is what wins battles, campaigns and wars.
Normally I let the territorial objectives take care of themselves as I set about destroying the enemies forces.
In WiF, that's not totally true. You can strike at the enemies ability to wage war in other ways. Such as strategic bombing or submarine campaigns.
Now comes the risk vs reward part. No matter what action I contemplate it comes down to risk vs reward.
Want to take Hawaii? What is the risk? VERY HIGH. What is the reward? VERY LOW. Result not likely to happen in most games. If those levels come closer together the greater the likelyhood of it happening. If they get to the point of even or where the risk is in the low end and the reward in the high end then it's probably going to happen.
That's for ANY operation. Each of us has our own ideas of what makes for high or low risk, as well as high or low reward. That's what makes all of our strategies different. We all see the risk vs reward differently.
It depends on your approach to crippling the enemies military power or his ability to wage war. We all have different ideas of how to go about that.
The results of battles/campaigns can also change that. What was high risk last turn before that big carrier battle you just won now becomes low risk. The same with if you lost that big carrier battle. What was before low risk now becomes high risk.
Some of these actions are set in motion long before they are applied. A strategic bombing campaign starts months before the first bomber becomes available. They are then held back until there are enough of them to get a reasonable result. Once that takes place then the campaign starts and the player keeps on reinforcing it until the objectives for that action is completed or it fails.
Naval and air are only extensions of the land forces. No naval or air forces can win the war by themselves. Only land forces can win the war. They are the only forces that can occupy the objectives. Naval and air forces are strength multipliers. They make the land forces more effective. They also get them to places quicker and at times with less losses.
Maybe this will give you a better idea of how our group fights. Of what it takes to win a strategic campaign. Of where you may want to take yours in the future.
Good Hunting.
MR
Grand Strategy
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
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Mad Russian
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Grand Strategy
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
RE: Grand Strategy
Thats kind of interesting...because we have a different view on how we fight.
In a nutshell, the player/side who can "adapt" the best is usually the winner. WiF is a game with many extremes. You can sail out to a sea zone with overwhelming odds, and not find the enemy. Or, you can roll flukey with a crappy fighter and take out a bunch of well escorted bombers...Even Land Combat can go from a spectacular failure to an awesome victory, all in the range of the d10.
I have the fortune (or misfortune) of having not one, but two Statistic major's (now employed in stats) in our gaming group. They both like to play the odds, since they can figure them out quite easily. Neither usually win, although they both usually do well. Another in our group is a balls to the wall kind of player, where if you are not attacking, then you are losing. He has a few great successes, but quite a few great failures, with a Feast or Famine approach... But the ones in our group who consistantly win, are the ones who can take advantage of whatever the dice throw at them.
The best way to go about this is to always have some sort of reserve. Uncommited units that can move in to exploit your success, or their failure in dice. Use only enough of an asset to do a mission, if your enemy jumps on it and finds you, fight your one round and get out. Use the rest of your assets for different missions since he is mostly commited.
WiF is really one of the flukiest games I have ever played, which does give it a very good replayability. In our group we dont blame the dice, we try and make the dice work for us... Except that time they rolled a one for weather on the last turn of May/June, then 9 or 10 all through July/August for mud throughout in Russia
. That time we blamed the dice
In a nutshell, the player/side who can "adapt" the best is usually the winner. WiF is a game with many extremes. You can sail out to a sea zone with overwhelming odds, and not find the enemy. Or, you can roll flukey with a crappy fighter and take out a bunch of well escorted bombers...Even Land Combat can go from a spectacular failure to an awesome victory, all in the range of the d10.
I have the fortune (or misfortune) of having not one, but two Statistic major's (now employed in stats) in our gaming group. They both like to play the odds, since they can figure them out quite easily. Neither usually win, although they both usually do well. Another in our group is a balls to the wall kind of player, where if you are not attacking, then you are losing. He has a few great successes, but quite a few great failures, with a Feast or Famine approach... But the ones in our group who consistantly win, are the ones who can take advantage of whatever the dice throw at them.
The best way to go about this is to always have some sort of reserve. Uncommited units that can move in to exploit your success, or their failure in dice. Use only enough of an asset to do a mission, if your enemy jumps on it and finds you, fight your one round and get out. Use the rest of your assets for different missions since he is mostly commited.
WiF is really one of the flukiest games I have ever played, which does give it a very good replayability. In our group we dont blame the dice, we try and make the dice work for us... Except that time they rolled a one for weather on the last turn of May/June, then 9 or 10 all through July/August for mud throughout in Russia
. That time we blamed the dice
“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great
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Mad Russian
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RE: Grand Strategy
Your statistics majors won't like the fog of war. Where they can't calculate every factor to get the absolute best possible odds.
We have a balls to the wall kind of player in our group as well. The home run king is most usually the strike out king too. His view of what is high risk vs high return is much different than mine.
I agree that you take what the game gives you. That's what this comment in my original post was referring to...
The results of battles/campaigns can also change that. What was high risk last turn before that big carrier battle you just won now becomes low risk. The same with if you lost that big carrier battle. What was before low risk now becomes high risk
We all judge things on risk vs return. But sometimes you just "FEEL LUCKY" and will take the chance. For me, those usually end up about 2-1 in my favor.
When you can't see all the factors the game changes dramatically. Computer games bring the Fog of War to gaming and IMO that and a competent AI are the great things computers do for wargames.
We'll see how it all turns out in the upcoming decade.....[:D]
Good Hunting.
MR
We have a balls to the wall kind of player in our group as well. The home run king is most usually the strike out king too. His view of what is high risk vs high return is much different than mine.
I agree that you take what the game gives you. That's what this comment in my original post was referring to...
The results of battles/campaigns can also change that. What was high risk last turn before that big carrier battle you just won now becomes low risk. The same with if you lost that big carrier battle. What was before low risk now becomes high risk
We all judge things on risk vs return. But sometimes you just "FEEL LUCKY" and will take the chance. For me, those usually end up about 2-1 in my favor.
When you can't see all the factors the game changes dramatically. Computer games bring the Fog of War to gaming and IMO that and a competent AI are the great things computers do for wargames.
We'll see how it all turns out in the upcoming decade.....[:D]
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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OzHawkeye2
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RE: Grand Strategy
For me, in the various WW2 games I've played over the years, I enjoy those that realistically model the trade-offs between various strategic choices, as well as model the essential manpower problems that pretty effectively doomed the Axis powers.
Taking that second element first, it meant that the Soviets could afford to lose staggeringly large numbers of men (less so material save for Lend-Lease aid but still) and remain "in the game". Germany could not. Indeed, Germany would have been crippled by even one or two large losses of manpower such as she suffered at Stalingrad with the loss of Paulus' 6th Army. The German losses there, though devastating to the Germans, were only approximate to any number of half a dozen or so Soviet mass-surrenders during the first 12 months of the German-Soviet war. Effective modeling of manpower enforces upon the German player a drive towards efficiency, inflicting maximum casualties on the enemy, while simultaneously reducing their own casualties.
As to strategic choices, Germany faces so many, as does Japan, choices that by their relatively defensive nature early on are of a smaller scope for Allied players.
For Germany questions like, do I launch a crash sub-building program and contest (with a view to actually winning) the Atlantic? (I enjoy a game that starts a few years early, say '36, allowing for bigger choices like this). How do I time Operation Barbarossa? Do I bother with Norway? With Yugoslavia and Greece? How many resources to commit to Africa?
For Japan the choice is one between the Army and the Navy. Do I enlarge the army with a view to taking out China, or enlarge the Navy with a view to punishing America as much as possible. What about India? Australia? Do I intervene against the USSR in co-ordination with the Germans?
I guess I tend to play the Axis side more often than not because of the more interesting strategic choices they face. To at least some extent, with the Axis firmly in the initiative during the early phases of the War, the Allies have less opportunity to make such choices themselves, spending more of their time reacting to and containing Axis advances as best they can. Obviously as the Allies, I can't only be re-active, but I need to be conscious of the big head start the Axis players have however.
One interesting strategic choice for an Allied player early on is the defence of France. The British player needs to decide, and quickly, just how much will be given to slowing up the Germans in France. There's nothing worse for the English then making a massive commitment to the French, only to have them pack it in anyway, particularly if scare British resources get trapped on the continent post French-surrender. Likewise however, they can't simply abandon France, since any significant delay there can seriously impact Germanys ability to turn east in time and with sufficient numbers for Barbarossa.
Taking that second element first, it meant that the Soviets could afford to lose staggeringly large numbers of men (less so material save for Lend-Lease aid but still) and remain "in the game". Germany could not. Indeed, Germany would have been crippled by even one or two large losses of manpower such as she suffered at Stalingrad with the loss of Paulus' 6th Army. The German losses there, though devastating to the Germans, were only approximate to any number of half a dozen or so Soviet mass-surrenders during the first 12 months of the German-Soviet war. Effective modeling of manpower enforces upon the German player a drive towards efficiency, inflicting maximum casualties on the enemy, while simultaneously reducing their own casualties.
As to strategic choices, Germany faces so many, as does Japan, choices that by their relatively defensive nature early on are of a smaller scope for Allied players.
For Germany questions like, do I launch a crash sub-building program and contest (with a view to actually winning) the Atlantic? (I enjoy a game that starts a few years early, say '36, allowing for bigger choices like this). How do I time Operation Barbarossa? Do I bother with Norway? With Yugoslavia and Greece? How many resources to commit to Africa?
For Japan the choice is one between the Army and the Navy. Do I enlarge the army with a view to taking out China, or enlarge the Navy with a view to punishing America as much as possible. What about India? Australia? Do I intervene against the USSR in co-ordination with the Germans?
I guess I tend to play the Axis side more often than not because of the more interesting strategic choices they face. To at least some extent, with the Axis firmly in the initiative during the early phases of the War, the Allies have less opportunity to make such choices themselves, spending more of their time reacting to and containing Axis advances as best they can. Obviously as the Allies, I can't only be re-active, but I need to be conscious of the big head start the Axis players have however.
One interesting strategic choice for an Allied player early on is the defence of France. The British player needs to decide, and quickly, just how much will be given to slowing up the Germans in France. There's nothing worse for the English then making a massive commitment to the French, only to have them pack it in anyway, particularly if scare British resources get trapped on the continent post French-surrender. Likewise however, they can't simply abandon France, since any significant delay there can seriously impact Germanys ability to turn east in time and with sufficient numbers for Barbarossa.
RE: Grand Strategy
This is the most informative thread I have seen lately, come on guys and gals put your two cents in or forever be quiet, some people are afraid to post because someone might think they are stupid questions or answers, we got rid of those people a couple months ago, so please express your opinions as best that you can and they will be respected. Good thread MR, Liquidsky, Ozhawkeye, keep it going and please dont start talking about die rolls{hehe]. I learn more from these kind of discussions then from reading rules and such, thats because my retention is that of a two year old.
Willy
Willy
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Cheesehead
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RE: Grand Strategy
Want to take Hawaii? What is the risk? VERY HIGH. What is the reward? VERY LOW.
The reward for [Japan] taking Hawaii is very low? Have you played the US and lost Hawaii? Trying mounting an offensive against Japan without Hawaii.
Admittedly, this rarely happens. But Hawaii is every bit as important as Gibralter. It's just not mentioned in the same breath since it so rarely falls. I lost it playing as the US once to a JP player who sprung an early DOW because I had only one corps defending. It was early (JF41) and at first I didn't mind because USE was not very good and I welcomed early US involvement. But I had the devil of a time trying to retake it. And JP had free reign in Asia/Pacific until 1944.
John
You can't fight in here...this is the war room!
RE: Grand Strategy
There are some discussions about all that here :ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
What is grand strategy?
The planning and execution of military operations that cripple the enemies military power or his ability to wage war.
So, how do you do that?
tm.asp?m=1555915
RE: Grand Strategy
In the six games of WiF I have played over the years, a common thread for successful grand strategy (for or against the side I was one) has been related to time tables. For the first half of the war, the Axis at its best is trying to coherently expand as far as possible, with the foresight to have taken stuff they can hold on to tenaciously for a long time. Thus, it is their time table that dominates during the early game, and the Allies are trying to throw wrenches into it. Similarly, the second half of the game calls for time tables if the Allies are to be successful, and the Axis are the wrench throwers. A well thought out time table guides redeployments and production strategies, and of course contains contingencies in case the schedule cannot be met.
The luck inherent in the game won't allow any time table to be followed exactly, but not having one can lead to an incoherent plan. Opportunity may knock, but changing your grand designs to exploit such an opporunity shouldn't be undertaken without careful consideration, and of course, then a new time table would need to be laid out.
The luck inherent in the game won't allow any time table to be followed exactly, but not having one can lead to an incoherent plan. Opportunity may knock, but changing your grand designs to exploit such an opporunity shouldn't be undertaken without careful consideration, and of course, then a new time table would need to be laid out.
"The creative combination lays bare the presumption of a lie." -- Lasker
Keith Henderson
Keith Henderson
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composer99
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RE: Grand Strategy
Check the 'sticky' threads for the AIs as well, these are filled with lots of strategic & tactical discussion. The scenario booklet you can download from ADG's website offers some good advice too.
~ Composer99
RE: Grand Strategy
The grand strategy is the element I love most about WiF. Games such as Third Reich, Axis and Allies, Europe Engulfed which cover a whole world/theatre are my favorites.
Invade England or Russia. How? When? Austalia/China/India? How? When?
Invading and taking PH is not horribly risky. Good play by both players should give the Japanese about a 45% chance (+8 on 2D10) to capture. If Japan takes it, especially if playing with LOS, the US is stymied. Where is the new major port? How do reinforcements get there? Supply? Take the risk here.
Invade England or Russia. How? When? Austalia/China/India? How? When?
Invading and taking PH is not horribly risky. Good play by both players should give the Japanese about a 45% chance (+8 on 2D10) to capture. If Japan takes it, especially if playing with LOS, the US is stymied. Where is the new major port? How do reinforcements get there? Supply? Take the risk here.
Steve Balk
Iowa, USA
Iowa, USA
RE: Grand Strategy
Grand Strategy means different things to different countries.
The Grand Strategy for the Axis is essential from day 1.
To me the most important part of Axis campaign is the "grand" plan. Your grand strategy as the germans is Taming the Bear, Sealion, Fortress Europe...whatever.
This should be decided upon before the first unit is placed on the map. From then on everything you do as the German should have your Grand Strategy in mind. I'm not saying play with blinders on, opportunities will present themselves. But for every opportunity there is an opportunity cost, what are you giving up to take advantage of the opportunity sitting in front of you. If you get Sidetracked with too many of these you really don't end up having a grand strategy at all, you are playing by the seat of your pants...good luck with that.
Japan is the same, decide before the first unit is placed where your focus is; China, Pacific, etc...
Grand Strategy for the Allies has to be more flexible.
The CW Grand Strategy at the begining is to hang on. Production for the CW at the beginning can be pretty generic as well. Whatever happens you know you need Air Superiority, TRS, AMPH, and an Army that shows up quickly (a mix of TERR and punch). Once things settle down and you see the Axis focus then you can start Planning ahead more specifically. Then you can make an Offensive Grand Strategy, decide upon it and stick with it. The best part of being the CW is, as the Grand Strategy is developing, you can still perform operations in the mean time.
As far as the units on the map, that is something different alltogether. For them, the best plan lasts until the moment the first shot is fired. As long as I've stuck to my Grand Strategy I should have the proper units in place. From here it's just my job not to make mistakes with the units I have and get average dice...If I do that I will win the Game.[:)] Of course the other guy is thinking the same thing...that's why we play the game.[;)]
When you talk about either territorial objectives, destroying enemy forces, etc...to me that has nothing to do with grand strategy. When I make grand strategy, for the germans to Tame the Bear, I don't think about taking Moscow, destroying armies...That just happens as I move my guys around.
Anyway,for what it's worth, and some would say it aint worth much, those are my thoughts on Grand Strategy.
The Grand Strategy for the Axis is essential from day 1.
To me the most important part of Axis campaign is the "grand" plan. Your grand strategy as the germans is Taming the Bear, Sealion, Fortress Europe...whatever.
This should be decided upon before the first unit is placed on the map. From then on everything you do as the German should have your Grand Strategy in mind. I'm not saying play with blinders on, opportunities will present themselves. But for every opportunity there is an opportunity cost, what are you giving up to take advantage of the opportunity sitting in front of you. If you get Sidetracked with too many of these you really don't end up having a grand strategy at all, you are playing by the seat of your pants...good luck with that.
Japan is the same, decide before the first unit is placed where your focus is; China, Pacific, etc...
Grand Strategy for the Allies has to be more flexible.
The CW Grand Strategy at the begining is to hang on. Production for the CW at the beginning can be pretty generic as well. Whatever happens you know you need Air Superiority, TRS, AMPH, and an Army that shows up quickly (a mix of TERR and punch). Once things settle down and you see the Axis focus then you can start Planning ahead more specifically. Then you can make an Offensive Grand Strategy, decide upon it and stick with it. The best part of being the CW is, as the Grand Strategy is developing, you can still perform operations in the mean time.
As far as the units on the map, that is something different alltogether. For them, the best plan lasts until the moment the first shot is fired. As long as I've stuck to my Grand Strategy I should have the proper units in place. From here it's just my job not to make mistakes with the units I have and get average dice...If I do that I will win the Game.[:)] Of course the other guy is thinking the same thing...that's why we play the game.[;)]
When you talk about either territorial objectives, destroying enemy forces, etc...to me that has nothing to do with grand strategy. When I make grand strategy, for the germans to Tame the Bear, I don't think about taking Moscow, destroying armies...That just happens as I move my guys around.
Anyway,for what it's worth, and some would say it aint worth much, those are my thoughts on Grand Strategy.
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Shannon V. OKeets
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RE: Grand Strategy
Here is a snippet of the strategic plans for France (for the AI Opponent).
=========
GS 1.3 Strategic planning
GS 1.3.1 Strategic Plans
Strategic plan #1 stays in effect until: (1) Paris falls, in which case plan #2 goes into effect, or (2) the threat to Paris from EuroAxis is extinguished, in which case plan #4 goes into effect, or (3) the number of French units in Metropolitan France is less than 6 and France’s production has been reduced to zero. Once France surrenders, strategic plan #2 goes into effect.
Strategic plan #2 stays in effect until no French units remain in Metropolitan France and Spain, at which time #3 goes into effect.
Strategic Plan #1 Defend Paris
∙ France starts as Defensive and goes to Desperate Defense once Germany begins their attack on France seriously.
∙ Defend against Germany (including Belgian border).
∙ Defend against Italy (since Italy might declare war at any time).
∙ If Italy denudes its border, possibly advance into Italy.
∙ If Germany denudes its border, possibly advance into Germany.
Strategic Plan #2 Protect Spain and Gibraltar
∙ Setup a second line of defense after Paris has fallen. This includes units in Toulouse and Lyon. Don't make it easy to conquer France. Defend especially the areas in south western France that block the German advance on Spain and Gibraltar. If Germany has to declare Vichy and then Collapse it immediately, this is a double hit of US Entry actions.
∙ If Germany wants to conquer France, France must make them pay in time and units, especially time. Time is the most precious thing for Germany in 1939 to 1941, so the Allies need to make Germany waste impulses.
Strategic Plan #3 Free France
Coordinate closely with (i.e., take orders from) the USA and CW. The main decision is whether to build land, air, or naval units.
Strategic Plan #4 On the Offense
1940
∙ Should Germany not attack France forcefully, or is unsuccessful in its attacks, then France gradually transitions from Desperate Defense to Defensive and ultimately to Offense.
1941
∙ Even if the USSR is in serious trouble, France should not launch an all out offensive. Instead, France should build as many units as possible and wait until the USA and CW to arrive. Only with strong support from its allies can France attack.
1942+
∙ Once France goes on the offense, Italy is the first target, and should be invaded by France and the CW as soon as possible. Conquering Italy by the end of 1941 is possible. France can also begin opening secondary fronts, such as liberating the Balkans, and attacking Rumania.
Strategic Plan #5 Surrender Metropolitan France
Simply surrender when that phase of the game arrives. The conditions under which France should surrender are:
GS 1.3.2 Strategic Plan Components
Direct attack on Germany, possibly through Belgium (and the Netherlands)
Direct attack on Italy
Attack to remove all Axis forces from the Mediterranean
Attack through the Balkans, against the Axis aligned minors
Support CW, USA, and USSR attacks on Germany and Italy
GS 1.3.3 Strategic Plan Time Lines and Milestones
GS 1.3.3.1 Time Lines and Milestones for Strategic Plan #1
1939
Land
∙ Defend at all cost.
∙ Insist on a big BEF from the CW. The latter should include at least Gort and two corps but preferably two British HQ's. The CW should defend at least two hexes on the coast of the North Sea with supporting naval bombardment and air cover.
∙ Always leave a unit in Paris when Axis units are on France’s border.
∙ Prepare for a France first strategy.
∙ Against a France First, use the surprise impulse to try and flip Rundstedt.
∙ Place fast units around Lille that can reach the Dyle even in bad weather. It is important to stop Germany at the Dyle if they attack Belgium in 1939.
∙ Leave the North Sea coastal hexes open for the BEF to occupy.
∙ Always keep the Paris MIL in the hex most likely to be attacked as it is the cheapest 5 strength unit and arrives soonest and closest to the front.
∙ Use speed bumps to delay conquest by Germany.
∙ If Germany has left nothing in the west, examine the possibility of putting four corps over the border into Germany in order to align Yugoslavia. However, sending 4 corps across the border into Germany could be doing exactly what Germany wants if the USSR has already demanded Bessarabia.
Air
∙ Do not risk all the tactical air units until German units get adjacent to Paris. Then use those that remain to help defend Paris.
∙ Ground strike any German HQ's that start the game in position to attack. Excellent targets for ground strikes are enemy HQs.
Naval
∙ Bring back to France, using naval transport, most of the troops that are overseas (e.g., Northern Africa). The only unit to leave behind is the weakest INF to defend Algiers, in order to prevent the easy conquest of Algeria by Italy.
∙ Move the French Fleet to the Mediterranean and wait for a chance to swap battleships with the Italians.
Baltic Gambit
∙ On the first impulse send a small fleet of fast ships to the Baltic to sink the German convoys if they have been left unprotected. These ships will die but then they at least will not turn against the Allies later.
∙ Suicide attacks are wasteful, even if the units are French.
1940
Land
∙ Defend at all cost.
∙ France usually has 1 or 2 clear hexes in the front line that can be attacked from 2 hexes. A MECH + ARM stop these hexes from being almost automatic overruns. The capability to hold 1hex (MECH + ARM) or 2 hexes (1 each) at less than automatic victory odds is critical for the defense of France.
∙ A typical German attack from 2 hexes into Clear terrain has the following modifiers:
Odds +5.5 (not counting air support)
Disorganized units +4
HQ-support (defensive + offensive) +0 to 2 Blitz bonus +4
Para +1
∙ Without French ARM or MECH to occupy Clear terrain, modifiers easily end up at around +14, or at least +12. This almost automatically means dead French units, and a hole in the line. With French ARM + MECH in exposed Clear terrain (+ AT if playing with DIVS), typical modifiers drop to +8 to 10, which has at least some chance of the attack failing, and a very good chance of having the French units survive to fight another day.
∙ Without French blitz bonuses in Clear terrain, the German spearhead will tear into the line when Fine weather arrives, exposing more Clear terrain and devouring French units in the process. The attack will keep on rolling since the German units will remain organized, or be reorganized if needed.
∙ Once Paris becomes threatened, position an INF stack to the east of Paris with a FTR and an HQ (stacked separately) to the west of Paris.
∙ The opportunity to counterattack should always be considered because when the Germans fail in a land attack and disorganize, it might be possible to inflict extra damage on them. Germans advancing too far behind the French front line can possibly be cut off from the rest of the German units and put out of supply.
∙ Use the ARM and MECH to kill an exposed enemy stack. The killing of one or more MECH or ARM, ARM costs Germany dearly.
∙ It is dangerous for the French to attack. With the 2d10 optional rule it's not easy for the French to take out even a lone armor unit.
∙ Move French units around so the Italian border is held by reserve corps. Maybe include MIL too, though it is nice to have the MIL in the front lines taking casualties as long as possible since they are cheap to build and come in immediately. With MIL and reserve units defending the south, when Vichy is declared, the regular French army is killed while the MIL survives. This is good because MIL and reserve units don’t contribute to the size of the Vichy garrison.
Air
∙ Do not risk all the tactical air units until German units get adjacent to Paris. Then use those that remain to help defend Paris.
Naval
∙ Always make sure the carrier and all the battleships can return to base in Metropolitan France. This is to prevent the total conquest of France because on the Free-French Chart, 2 is subtracted from each die roll for minor countries going Free French. If Free France controls no minor countries, France is immediately conquered completely.
Mar/Apr
∙
May/Jun
∙ It’s important to make sure France doesn’t fall early in May/Jun 1940.
∙ Holding on until Jul/Aug 1940 can be worth not only 10 to 15 BPs, but it also costs Germany crucial time. This is especially true if Germany goes for Spain or Suez while simultaneously launching a 1941 Barbarossa.
∙ Don't leave the Italian front too soon. If troops have to be shifted to protect Paris, take them from the Maginot line instead. Only when certain of losing Paris should the Italians be permitted to walk through the southern mountains.
∙ When France is close to collapse, evacuate as many land, air, and naval units, in particular the naval transport, subs, and cruisers, to areas that have a good chance of becoming Free French.
Navy Based in Central West Africa
∙ Send ships to central Africa when France is close to collapse. Save the cruiser fleet, especially the Algeria. Do not risk losing them needlessly. Instead, preserve them as Free French for use as convoy escorts along the west African coast. All naval units should stay engaged in combat until France is close to collapse, then naval units other than battleships and the carrier should be rebased to Martinique or central Africa.
Navy Based in Pacific
∙ Base French subs and cruisers as far east as possible during setup. Then rebase them to New Caledonia and a French major port in the Pacific so they become Free French.
Jul/Aug
∙ Set up a new front line after Paris falls. This includes placing units in Toulouse and Lyon. Don't make it easy for the Axis to conquer France.
Sep/Oct
∙ If Germany launches Barbarossa in 1940, before capturing Paris, initiate a strategic bombing campaign against Germany and provide maximum lend-lease to Russia. An Italian campaign should be considered.
1941
∙ Same as 1940 since Germany’s timetable usually calls for conquering France before the USA or USSR enter the war.
∙ If Germany launches Barbarossa before capturing Paris, conduct a strategic bombing campaign against Germany and provide maximum lend-lease to Russia. An Italian campaign should also be considered.
1942
∙ If France is still unconquered, start planning an offensive with the rest of the CW and USA.
=========
GS 1.3 Strategic planning
GS 1.3.1 Strategic Plans
Strategic plan #1 stays in effect until: (1) Paris falls, in which case plan #2 goes into effect, or (2) the threat to Paris from EuroAxis is extinguished, in which case plan #4 goes into effect, or (3) the number of French units in Metropolitan France is less than 6 and France’s production has been reduced to zero. Once France surrenders, strategic plan #2 goes into effect.
Strategic plan #2 stays in effect until no French units remain in Metropolitan France and Spain, at which time #3 goes into effect.
Strategic Plan #1 Defend Paris
∙ France starts as Defensive and goes to Desperate Defense once Germany begins their attack on France seriously.
∙ Defend against Germany (including Belgian border).
∙ Defend against Italy (since Italy might declare war at any time).
∙ If Italy denudes its border, possibly advance into Italy.
∙ If Germany denudes its border, possibly advance into Germany.
Strategic Plan #2 Protect Spain and Gibraltar
∙ Setup a second line of defense after Paris has fallen. This includes units in Toulouse and Lyon. Don't make it easy to conquer France. Defend especially the areas in south western France that block the German advance on Spain and Gibraltar. If Germany has to declare Vichy and then Collapse it immediately, this is a double hit of US Entry actions.
∙ If Germany wants to conquer France, France must make them pay in time and units, especially time. Time is the most precious thing for Germany in 1939 to 1941, so the Allies need to make Germany waste impulses.
Strategic Plan #3 Free France
Coordinate closely with (i.e., take orders from) the USA and CW. The main decision is whether to build land, air, or naval units.
Strategic Plan #4 On the Offense
1940
∙ Should Germany not attack France forcefully, or is unsuccessful in its attacks, then France gradually transitions from Desperate Defense to Defensive and ultimately to Offense.
1941
∙ Even if the USSR is in serious trouble, France should not launch an all out offensive. Instead, France should build as many units as possible and wait until the USA and CW to arrive. Only with strong support from its allies can France attack.
1942+
∙ Once France goes on the offense, Italy is the first target, and should be invaded by France and the CW as soon as possible. Conquering Italy by the end of 1941 is possible. France can also begin opening secondary fronts, such as liberating the Balkans, and attacking Rumania.
Strategic Plan #5 Surrender Metropolitan France
Simply surrender when that phase of the game arrives. The conditions under which France should surrender are:
GS 1.3.2 Strategic Plan Components
Direct attack on Germany, possibly through Belgium (and the Netherlands)
Direct attack on Italy
Attack to remove all Axis forces from the Mediterranean
Attack through the Balkans, against the Axis aligned minors
Support CW, USA, and USSR attacks on Germany and Italy
GS 1.3.3 Strategic Plan Time Lines and Milestones
GS 1.3.3.1 Time Lines and Milestones for Strategic Plan #1
1939
Land
∙ Defend at all cost.
∙ Insist on a big BEF from the CW. The latter should include at least Gort and two corps but preferably two British HQ's. The CW should defend at least two hexes on the coast of the North Sea with supporting naval bombardment and air cover.
∙ Always leave a unit in Paris when Axis units are on France’s border.
∙ Prepare for a France first strategy.
∙ Against a France First, use the surprise impulse to try and flip Rundstedt.
∙ Place fast units around Lille that can reach the Dyle even in bad weather. It is important to stop Germany at the Dyle if they attack Belgium in 1939.
∙ Leave the North Sea coastal hexes open for the BEF to occupy.
∙ Always keep the Paris MIL in the hex most likely to be attacked as it is the cheapest 5 strength unit and arrives soonest and closest to the front.
∙ Use speed bumps to delay conquest by Germany.
∙ If Germany has left nothing in the west, examine the possibility of putting four corps over the border into Germany in order to align Yugoslavia. However, sending 4 corps across the border into Germany could be doing exactly what Germany wants if the USSR has already demanded Bessarabia.
Air
∙ Do not risk all the tactical air units until German units get adjacent to Paris. Then use those that remain to help defend Paris.
∙ Ground strike any German HQ's that start the game in position to attack. Excellent targets for ground strikes are enemy HQs.
Naval
∙ Bring back to France, using naval transport, most of the troops that are overseas (e.g., Northern Africa). The only unit to leave behind is the weakest INF to defend Algiers, in order to prevent the easy conquest of Algeria by Italy.
∙ Move the French Fleet to the Mediterranean and wait for a chance to swap battleships with the Italians.
Baltic Gambit
∙ On the first impulse send a small fleet of fast ships to the Baltic to sink the German convoys if they have been left unprotected. These ships will die but then they at least will not turn against the Allies later.
∙ Suicide attacks are wasteful, even if the units are French.
1940
Land
∙ Defend at all cost.
∙ France usually has 1 or 2 clear hexes in the front line that can be attacked from 2 hexes. A MECH + ARM stop these hexes from being almost automatic overruns. The capability to hold 1hex (MECH + ARM) or 2 hexes (1 each) at less than automatic victory odds is critical for the defense of France.
∙ A typical German attack from 2 hexes into Clear terrain has the following modifiers:
Odds +5.5 (not counting air support)
Disorganized units +4
HQ-support (defensive + offensive) +0 to 2 Blitz bonus +4
Para +1
∙ Without French ARM or MECH to occupy Clear terrain, modifiers easily end up at around +14, or at least +12. This almost automatically means dead French units, and a hole in the line. With French ARM + MECH in exposed Clear terrain (+ AT if playing with DIVS), typical modifiers drop to +8 to 10, which has at least some chance of the attack failing, and a very good chance of having the French units survive to fight another day.
∙ Without French blitz bonuses in Clear terrain, the German spearhead will tear into the line when Fine weather arrives, exposing more Clear terrain and devouring French units in the process. The attack will keep on rolling since the German units will remain organized, or be reorganized if needed.
∙ Once Paris becomes threatened, position an INF stack to the east of Paris with a FTR and an HQ (stacked separately) to the west of Paris.
∙ The opportunity to counterattack should always be considered because when the Germans fail in a land attack and disorganize, it might be possible to inflict extra damage on them. Germans advancing too far behind the French front line can possibly be cut off from the rest of the German units and put out of supply.
∙ Use the ARM and MECH to kill an exposed enemy stack. The killing of one or more MECH or ARM, ARM costs Germany dearly.
∙ It is dangerous for the French to attack. With the 2d10 optional rule it's not easy for the French to take out even a lone armor unit.
∙ Move French units around so the Italian border is held by reserve corps. Maybe include MIL too, though it is nice to have the MIL in the front lines taking casualties as long as possible since they are cheap to build and come in immediately. With MIL and reserve units defending the south, when Vichy is declared, the regular French army is killed while the MIL survives. This is good because MIL and reserve units don’t contribute to the size of the Vichy garrison.
Air
∙ Do not risk all the tactical air units until German units get adjacent to Paris. Then use those that remain to help defend Paris.
Naval
∙ Always make sure the carrier and all the battleships can return to base in Metropolitan France. This is to prevent the total conquest of France because on the Free-French Chart, 2 is subtracted from each die roll for minor countries going Free French. If Free France controls no minor countries, France is immediately conquered completely.
Mar/Apr
∙
May/Jun
∙ It’s important to make sure France doesn’t fall early in May/Jun 1940.
∙ Holding on until Jul/Aug 1940 can be worth not only 10 to 15 BPs, but it also costs Germany crucial time. This is especially true if Germany goes for Spain or Suez while simultaneously launching a 1941 Barbarossa.
∙ Don't leave the Italian front too soon. If troops have to be shifted to protect Paris, take them from the Maginot line instead. Only when certain of losing Paris should the Italians be permitted to walk through the southern mountains.
∙ When France is close to collapse, evacuate as many land, air, and naval units, in particular the naval transport, subs, and cruisers, to areas that have a good chance of becoming Free French.
Navy Based in Central West Africa
∙ Send ships to central Africa when France is close to collapse. Save the cruiser fleet, especially the Algeria. Do not risk losing them needlessly. Instead, preserve them as Free French for use as convoy escorts along the west African coast. All naval units should stay engaged in combat until France is close to collapse, then naval units other than battleships and the carrier should be rebased to Martinique or central Africa.
Navy Based in Pacific
∙ Base French subs and cruisers as far east as possible during setup. Then rebase them to New Caledonia and a French major port in the Pacific so they become Free French.
Jul/Aug
∙ Set up a new front line after Paris falls. This includes placing units in Toulouse and Lyon. Don't make it easy for the Axis to conquer France.
Sep/Oct
∙ If Germany launches Barbarossa in 1940, before capturing Paris, initiate a strategic bombing campaign against Germany and provide maximum lend-lease to Russia. An Italian campaign should be considered.
1941
∙ Same as 1940 since Germany’s timetable usually calls for conquering France before the USA or USSR enter the war.
∙ If Germany launches Barbarossa before capturing Paris, conduct a strategic bombing campaign against Germany and provide maximum lend-lease to Russia. An Italian campaign should also be considered.
1942
∙ If France is still unconquered, start planning an offensive with the rest of the CW and USA.
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
RE: Grand Strategy
I haven't got to the AI threads yet, still slugging through the 54 page[X(] Game Interface thread...but this example does look interesting.
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michaelbaldur
- Posts: 4805
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:28 pm
- Location: denmark
RE: Grand Strategy
how do you make a Strategy meeding with the ai ?????
eks ..to make a strategy for cw (player) and usa (ai) in france 1944 ... what attacks the ai must take ...what hexes the ai must defend ... how the ai uses it bombers ..... and so on ...
eks ..to make a strategy for cw (player) and usa (ai) in france 1944 ... what attacks the ai must take ...what hexes the ai must defend ... how the ai uses it bombers ..... and so on ...
the wif rulebook is my bible
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
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Shannon V. OKeets
- Posts: 22165
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
- Contact:
RE: Grand Strategy
Sorry, I really don't have the time to explain in detail. One of the "decision makers" for each AIO (i.e., for major power) is the Foreign Liaison who handles coordination between each major power's AIO.ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur
how do you make a Strategy meeding with the ai ?????
eks ..to make a strategy for cw (player) and usa (ai) in france 1944 ... what attacks the ai must take ...what hexes the ai must defend ... how the ai uses it bombers ..... and so on ...
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
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Mad Russian
- Posts: 13255
- Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:29 pm
- Location: Texas
RE: Grand Strategy
ORIGINAL: Cheesehead
Want to take Hawaii? What is the risk? VERY HIGH. What is the reward? VERY LOW.
The reward for [Japan] taking Hawaii is very low? Have you played the US and lost Hawaii? Trying mounting an offensive against Japan without Hawaii.
The reward for Japan is VERY LOW from my point of view. It may not be in yours. What happens once Japan takes Hawaii? Are you going to defend it? If not why take it? If you are going to defend it you know the entire US Fleet is coming right? So, that means most if not all of the IJN must be there to repel the US attack. Nothing like putting all your eggs in the same basket for him to smash. The risk is VERY HIGH and the rewards are VERY LOW from where I sit. There are dozens of things I would rather do, and in fact chose to do, than take Hawaii.
You however, should feel free to use that strategy against our group when you play us.
Admittedly, this rarely happens. But Hawaii is every bit as important as Gibralter.
How many times have you seen offensive actions taken against Hawaii? How often do you see the Axis attack Gibraltar?
I rest my case. Hawaii is nowhere near as important as Gibraltar or Japan would go after it more often.
It's just not mentioned in the same breath since it so rarely falls. I lost it playing as the US once to a JP player who sprung an early DOW because I had only one corps defending. It was early (JF41) and at first I didn't mind because USE was not very good and I welcomed early US involvement. But I had the devil of a time trying to retake it. And JP had free reign in Asia/Pacific until 1944.
John
Did you win the game as the Allies? Were there repeated large scale naval actions that the US could afford to lose and Japan couldn't?
Tell us about this strategy and why you think it's the way to go if you can make it work.
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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Mad Russian
- Posts: 13255
- Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:29 pm
- Location: Texas
RE: Grand Strategy
ORIGINAL: sajbalk
Invading and taking PH is not horribly risky. Good play by both players should give the Japanese about a 45% chance (+8 on 2D10) to capture. If Japan takes it, especially if playing with LOS, the US is stymied. Where is the new major port? How do reinforcements get there? Supply? Take the risk here.
The risk is to the IJN from the moment that the islands fall. There will be continued naval battles that the US can afford to lose and IJN cannot. Break the back of the IJN there and then what?
What is LOS in WiF?
Since I've never played with 2D10 I can't comment on what is now easy or not. I can only go by what I've already seen and played through.
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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michaelbaldur
- Posts: 4805
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:28 pm
- Location: denmark
RE: Grand Strategy
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
ORIGINAL: sajbalk
Invading and taking PH is not horribly risky. Good play by both players should give the Japanese about a 45% chance (+8 on 2D10) to capture. If Japan takes it, especially if playing with LOS, the US is stymied. Where is the new major port? How do reinforcements get there? Supply? Take the risk here.
The risk is to the IJN from the moment that the islands fall. There will be continued naval battles that the US can afford to lose and IJN cannot. Break the back of the IJN there and then what?
What is LOS in WiF?
Since I've never played with 2D10 I can't comment on what is now easy or not. I can only go by what I've already seen and played through.
Good Hunting.
MR
LOS = line of supply
the wif rulebook is my bible
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
RE: Grand Strategy
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
For me, since I've been a financial adviser, the answer is risk versus reward.
The goal is to capture enemy territory. How and where you do that is what wins battles, campaigns and wars.
Hehe made me think about a game some friends and I played quite a bit back. We all knew the rules and how to play, but there was one guy that was playing for the first time.
Now I need to tell you about this guy before we do anything else;
-all A-student (one exception....History...)
-bronze in both math and physics olympics (yes there is such a thing)
-without doubt the smartest guy I've ever known.
-ended up playing the US
He told us he was going to take the game seriously, and think about every move, as he too had the risk vs reward aproach. Not untill -43 did he decide the US was ready to move, and from his setup and production it looked like Germany/Italy would be the main target. Then he sends his force, to invade.....Britain!!
Gave us all a BIG laugh [:D]
"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen
("She is to be torpedoed!")
("She is to be torpedoed!")
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brian brian
- Posts: 3191
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm
RE: Grand Strategy
I have never taken Pearl as Japan, but that has usually been because the US has really gone all-out defending it. (Fort, adjacent artillery, adjacent Marines, 3 decent range FTRs to contest a sea zone; really a lot of their pre-war production.) Why would a US player do that? Because it can hurt to lose it. The games I have seen Japan doing the best at the end are ones that featured Japan having taken Pearl. If the Japanese manage to take it, they are under no obligation to risk the Combined Fleet defending it from the USMC. A couple white print corps and a good amount of land-based air in the sea zone between Hawaii and the Marshalls and Japan has the USN right where they want them....forced to come in to a zone under their air umbrella to try and break supply to the Japanese holding Pearl. They could spend as little 8 or so BP (maybe as low as 6) on two white-print corps/army units and a division on top and potentially take out some heavy US landing forces with a single bad roll. Re-taking Pearl could cost the US 2-3 turns or longer, very precious turns for the Japanese in the long run.
If the USA tries to ignore a Japanese held Pearl Harbor, I'm sure the excellent Japanese Heavy Cruiser fleet can put that base to good use disrupting supply to Samoa; if the Allies try to approach the Japanese soft underbelly in Indonesia via the Indian Ocean, every unit coming at Japan takes an extra turn at least to reach the combat front. If Pearl is lightly held, I would launch a campaign against it as the Japanese. But I'm not sure it is worth a 3-turn campaign of seizing adjacent islands, etc. to do it right and take the hex (as opposed to the one time +8 shot), because there is nothing of economic value there, and Japan has plenty of other directions they can go that do offer a return on investment (and that is where I usually have the sons of the Rising Sun quite busy). The US can take it back, sure. The question is what does that cost them? There is the Japanese reward.
Really this is the essence of Grand Strategy in World in Flames. It is not a question of whether the other side can do something....the question is the cost in BPs and time. I see players shooting down ideas all the time with a comment like "but they'll just get it back anyway" or "those units will just be killed anyway"....big deal. This is cardboard/digital war. Your cardboard/digital soldiers die. If you have too many pieces left at the end of the game, you did it wrong. (CW BBs come to mind here).
I think there are two main Grand Strategic questions that get answered in every game of global WiF. One is whether Japan and Germany cooperate to take down an enemy Major Power or if they each kind of go their own way in the war. The other is whether the USA goes with a Germany-first strategy or another alternative. There are other points of Grand Strategy of course, but those are the two biggest questions in my mind.
If the USA tries to ignore a Japanese held Pearl Harbor, I'm sure the excellent Japanese Heavy Cruiser fleet can put that base to good use disrupting supply to Samoa; if the Allies try to approach the Japanese soft underbelly in Indonesia via the Indian Ocean, every unit coming at Japan takes an extra turn at least to reach the combat front. If Pearl is lightly held, I would launch a campaign against it as the Japanese. But I'm not sure it is worth a 3-turn campaign of seizing adjacent islands, etc. to do it right and take the hex (as opposed to the one time +8 shot), because there is nothing of economic value there, and Japan has plenty of other directions they can go that do offer a return on investment (and that is where I usually have the sons of the Rising Sun quite busy). The US can take it back, sure. The question is what does that cost them? There is the Japanese reward.
Really this is the essence of Grand Strategy in World in Flames. It is not a question of whether the other side can do something....the question is the cost in BPs and time. I see players shooting down ideas all the time with a comment like "but they'll just get it back anyway" or "those units will just be killed anyway"....big deal. This is cardboard/digital war. Your cardboard/digital soldiers die. If you have too many pieces left at the end of the game, you did it wrong. (CW BBs come to mind here).
I think there are two main Grand Strategic questions that get answered in every game of global WiF. One is whether Japan and Germany cooperate to take down an enemy Major Power or if they each kind of go their own way in the war. The other is whether the USA goes with a Germany-first strategy or another alternative. There are other points of Grand Strategy of course, but those are the two biggest questions in my mind.