PBEM and "cheating"

Windo von Paene · Post by **Windo von Paene** » Mon Jul 03, 2000 11:25 pm

So I'm playing my first PBEM game, and the thought has occurred to me...

What is there to prevent the following:

I get the save, load it, and start playing my turn. I run some recon troops out, and spot a bunch of the enemy. Or I send some tanks out, they get wasted by previously unseen enemy tanks.

So I go back and reload the save, and move again, this time avoiding the enemy nasties?

Now I have no intention of doing this, (we're playing insecure to keep down the file sizes), as it's not the point, and I think my opponent is above such nonsense, however I wonder how this is dealt with if at all? For when I want to play someone who might be less than trustworthy...

Drake666 · Post by **Drake666** » Mon Jul 03, 2000 11:50 pm

Not much you can really do. What I do when I start playing someone new is watch for to many things going right. Like if your oppanant seams to spot ambushs most of the time and if he gets hits against your armour way to offen and they are kills. If things like this are happening every turn their is a good chance he is chaeting. Also ask how long he has ben playing Steel panther games so you will have an idea of his skill level.

Mac_MatrixForum · Post by **Mac_MatrixForum** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 12:47 am

Is there really a reason to play with insecure files? Sending < 1Mb files (we've had less than 600kb) with email ain't _THAT_ bad, is it? Well, if you don't trust your opponent anymore (good luck all the time), start using the secure games. That's what you should do with new opponents as well. That's how it's handled

------------------
Markku "Mac" Rontu

"Understanding is a three-edged sword,
your side, their side and the truth."
- Sheridan in B5

Drake666 · Post by **Drake666** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 2:42 am

Problem is Mac is that people can cheat in secure mode just as easy as in unsecure. All your really doing with secure mode is giveing yourself a false sence of securety.

Spunkgibbon · Post by **Spunkgibbon** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 3:56 am

I don't know if it works in non-secure games but in secure PBEM you can press '1' during your turn and it'll tell you how many times both players have loaded and how many times they have quit. It's not damning evidence but it should give a clue if cheating is afoot especially if you follow Drake's pointers.

defenseman · Post by **defenseman** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 5:00 am

Drake, how EASY is it to cheat in secure mode. I play at home and at work (sometimes) after all the production work is done. I have found that the safeguards in the game against cheating to be good, and sometimes extreme.

Example: My roomie and I started a game where he was sending his turns to my work address where at first I was playing the turns. A couple of days later I tried email my turn files to my home address and play them there and received a security violation for my troubles, but it would NOT let me open the game regardless.

I guess what I want to know is, what about the secure PBEM system is not secure?

------------------
Sincerely,
The Defenseman

"Offense wins battles, but defense wins wars"

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 8:12 am

My rule of thumb for PBEM is simple. If I am afraid that the person I am to play might cheat, I don't play him.

Its that simple. Either I trust the person or I don't.

If I don't, I don't play him. I do play and occasionally I have busted some folks cheating.

I remember one occasion, when I could not kill anything, and was being slaughtered. After five turns of this and by now strangely curious, I took a peek at the preferences.

His tank preferences were set at 130, his infanty at 120, both of mine were set at 30!
He said it was an oversight from some editing he was doing. So be it.

We've not played since.

Pick your oppponent carefully is the best security I know. People, if they want to cheat, will find a way to cheat. That is how it works.

Wild Bill

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 8:43 am

There are ways you can replay turns that avoid the safeguards and indicators. But that is the only cheat left and you have to replay the entire turn, no saving "incrementally".

This was not blocked becasue to do so meant that several "honest" problems would result in a game being "dead" and neither player could continue. The current sytem blocks about every other cheat, unless the nefarious party is tricky, repeated replaying of turns will show up using the "1 " key record of loaads and saves.

Once the online game comes out that will be out too,

[This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited 07-04-2000).]

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 5:34 pm

Originally posted by Windo von Paene:
So I'm playing my first PBEM game, and the thought has occurred to me...

What is there to prevent the following:

I get the save, load it, and start playing my turn. I run some recon troops out, and spot a bunch of the enemy. Or I send some tanks out, they get wasted by previously unseen enemy tanks.

So I go back and reload the save, and move again, this time avoiding the enemy nasties?

Now I have no intention of doing this, (we're playing insecure to keep down the file sizes), as it's not the point, and I think my opponent is above such nonsense, however I wonder how this is dealt with if at all? For when I want to play someone who might be less than trustworthy...

Hello, I'm the player in question Windo, thanks so much for your confidence in me, as it is me with you!! I think that cheating would be totally moronic, but then thats just my opinion, may as well just play against the computer if thats the case! I've only ever played my brother, but always wanted to play agains another opponent, this is an honor, and I appreciate the invite, how could someone jeapordize that?!;-) Well, see you on the Eastern Front later, my friend, look forward to many more battles in the future!

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Mac_MatrixForum · Post by **Mac_MatrixForum** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 7:21 pm

Originally posted by Drake666:
Problem is Mac is that people can cheat in secure mode just as easy as in unsecure. All your really doing with secure mode is giveing yourself a false sence of securety.

I would like to hear about these cheats, Drake. I was under the impression that the new secure PBEM option is really quite secure. In old SPs the "secure" version wasn't secure but this is different, aren't the save files encrypted and all?

Security is needed as much in this game as in the Internet in general. Are all of the preferences modifiable during a PBEM game too? Tank & Gropo effectiveness, for example?

------------------
Markku "Mac" Rontu

"Understanding is a three-edged sword,
your side, their side and the truth."
- Sheridan in B5

Ilja Varha · Post by **Ilja Varha** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 8:10 pm

I agree with WB. If I don't trust him I don't play him. I have so far played many games (not SPWAW yet) and never even thought that my enemy would cheat... and even if they did it didn't help them! I have once been told that I cheated but after 2 hours I received a sorry and a new game file...

So know your enemy!

Windo von Paene · Post by **Windo von Paene** » Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:32 am

Warhorse...

I was not attempting to suggest that you were cheating, so please don't take it that way. I just started thinking about it once when I loaded the wrong zip file, then the gears in my head started turning, and I started thinking. It was an informational question only

Now why I missed four 34% shots last turn...arrrgh. Although I think you'll see a surprise in my last turn...heh.

Looks like I generated some interesting responses anyway.

No one has answered the questions about file sizes and secure versus unsecure though. It would be interesting to get an answer to that.

Also good to know about the '1' button, as I was unaware of that.

Damn those flame tanks!

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Wed Jul 05, 2000 4:45 am

Originally posted by Windo von Paene:
Warhorse...

I was not attempting to suggest that you were cheating, so please don't take it that way. I just started thinking about it once when I loaded the wrong zip file, then the gears in my head started turning, and I started thinking. It was an informational question only

Now why I missed four 34% shots last turn...arrrgh. Although I think you'll see a surprise in my last turn...heh.

Looks like I generated some interesting responses anyway.

No one has answered the questions about file sizes and secure versus unsecure though. It would be interesting to get an answer to that.

Also good to know about the '1' button, as I was unaware of that.

Damn those flame tanks!

No offense taken at all, a very good question in fact, and yes, that Partisan infiltrator DID give me a scare..temporarily, thank God for rear guards!! Think you will be much relieved this turn though, flaming Panzers!!

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Windo von Paene · Post by **Windo von Paene** » Wed Jul 05, 2000 5:06 am

Really! Flaming Panzers! Woohoo!

Can't wait to get home and check it out!

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Jul 06, 2000 3:03 am

It's a tough situation with the potential for cheating. The new versions of SP games (spww2 and spwaw) have pretty good security measures. Paul says that you can play through a turn again without trace but I don't know how it's done. I've played TONS of email games, and felt like *MAYBE* there had been cheating a few times, but what can you do... I can only hope none of my opponents felt that I was a cheating. It was part of the package back then. Now with the new order things are a lot better. With the older games there was always the shadow of potential cheating. That's worse than actual cheating in my mind. Loosing a game and thinking that it was legit when it wasn't isn't all that bad really. Thinking "maybe I lost because so and so cheated" is MUCH worse. My policy is never point fingers, it's just a game, and either way humans are more fun to play against than the computer.

Tomo

Alastair Anderson · Post by **Alastair Anderson** » Thu Jul 06, 2000 4:32 am

What I love about spwaw is the stability of the game compared to spww2. I have played a number of spww2 games and found that the game crashes for all sorts of reasons, sometimes on replay, sometimes when firing into an adjacent hex and sometimes for a reason beyond my understanding. Pressing "1" for my opponents must sometimes have caused a raised eyebrow because by turn 30 I have rarely had fewer that around 35 loads to 30 saves. Now with this game I can sleep easy confident that my opponents will be totally happy with the loads/saves numbers. Secure pbem and a crash free game DOES make the human vs human game secure. The only reason for a crash now would be a power cut and fortunately these days there are not many of them.

pbem is very secure as far as I'm concerned - if your opponent's saves to loads ratio is not pretty much 1:1 then dont play him again. We can all understand a power cut or 2, but 5 or 6?

I have to say finally that the vast majority of gamers I have met have been honest and upfront. Long may that continue. What is the point of playing if we are not on an even playing field?

Cheers
Al

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Jul 06, 2000 11:40 pm

Exactly. When SP:WW2 crashed because you ran up against an infantry assault against an unseen enemy it sucked. You couldn't go up there again with the same unit, cause the game would crash again. But now you know where an ambush has been laid. Stability is such a critical aspect to a game. An unstable game is hurt in many more ways than one. It reduces the immersiveness in the game...

Tomo

ruxius · Post by **ruxius** » Fri Jul 07, 2000 2:28 am

Sorry for sadness but I wonder why some kind of people does not understand what playing SP really means...
that is a way to go back history and live what our grandfathers lived..it doesn't matter who is the winner..history can not be changed...
I have friends I met here on the net..
they like playing SP they SAY they are
honest...when I do not trust it's a kind of
a standalone game even if you are playing
against a human opponent...why they not understand that also make mistakes and loose
is a part of real life...and who fought had to manage with errors that changed prospective of victory...
It's a question of honor..Who Knows the concept of Honor understand that cheat-victory is not real victory to himself...
even if the opponent will never know you
cheated...
So efforts to create secure games are important not to avoid cheats but to avoid to be a standalone gamer !
Thanks for your attention WB and PAULV
to this point....
I am playing campaign founding SPWAW
the very real direct offspring to SP 1 !
Today I played all the day ( I finished
my exams for this year..) AND REALLY I
FORGOT to eat ! Really don't you believe me ?
A friend of mine phoned to me and in that moment I realized it were 17:45...launch
missed !