Modder Fodder (again)

[m10bob]

The Japanese Army had a couple of these Ju 87's for test purposes..I am showing a model with folding wings to give ideas for a "what if" scenario.
I am sure the folding wing model may have been for the Graf Zeppelin.

[m10bob]

Pic#2..

[Barb]

Ju-87C - with manually folding wings for Graf Zeppelin.
Japs got one piece of Ju-87A [:)]

[wdolson]

The Germans also built Bf-109Ts for the Graf.  The 109s looked like navalized Es.  They ended up operating from primitive airstrips in Norway.  I'm not sure what happened to the Ju-87Cs.

Bill

[Shark7]

No harm in a what if scenario though, planning on doing one of those myself. AE is much more suited to it than vanilla WiTP due to the removal of slot restrictions.

[Historiker]

Has anyone a full list of German planes in Japan?

He-100, Me-109, Fw-190, Ju-88, Ju-87, He-111(not sure), Fw-200
what more?

[wdolson]

Me-163.  Or at least the Japanese built some under license.

Bill

[Historiker]

Yes, the tried to deliver a Me-163 and a Me-262

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The Germans also built Bf-109Ts for the Graf.  The 109s looked like navalized Es.  They ended up operating from primitive airstrips in Norway.  I'm not sure what happened to the Ju-87Cs.

Bill

When building of their carrier was suspended they (1/186 St) were attached to StG1 as an extra staffel, and raised to gruppe strength with longer range R models before May 1940.

There were about 5 - but whatever the precise figure, very few - pre-production Ju-87C-0 built*. Production shifted to the R (land based anti-shipping) model.

* The reference on the wikipedia page to 120 C-1s being built at the Weserflug Bremen plant is incorrect - they were R-1s. C-1s under construction at Junkers when the original order was cancelled were completed as standard B-2s.

[DuckofTindalos]

When you compare the stats of the Val and the Stuka, it's almost scary how bad the Val comes out...[X(]

[DivePac88]

Maybe the Japanese delay in getting the D4Y Judy, and the B7A Grace into production in 1942, could be on a par with the fiasco of not up-gunning the Panzer III to the long gun version before the invasion of Russia.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
When you compare the stats of the Val and the Stuka, it's almost scary how bad the Val comes out...[X(]

Which Stuka, Termi? The D model's stats were much better than the earlier versions..., but I don't think the Japs got any examples of Ju-87D's.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

When you compare the stats of the Val and the Stuka, it's almost scary how bad the Val comes out...[X(]

That is a darn good point. I had not compard the two side by side before. Now I feel compelled to do so. There goes another hour of my Sunday.

[Shark7]

Honestly, the Ju-87 would have been a good replacement for the Sonia.

[DuckofTindalos]

And the Val.

[borner]

Can you imagine the havoc that could have been caused with Gf and a couple groups of these out in the North Atlantic? Or if the KB ha these and not Vals in 42?
 

[Historiker]

A 1800kg AP bomb hitting a US carrier...

ouch [;)]

Even the 1000kg AP bomb should cause a lot of problems...

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: borner

Can you imagine the havoc that could have been caused with Gf and a couple groups of these out in the North Atlantic? Or if the KB ha these and not Vals in 42?

The R model, based on the "C" modifications, sacrificed bomb load for "wet" wings and extra fuel tanks on the outboard racks - bomb load was limited to one 500kg bomb, ie a 1000 pounder... max range of 1535 km, but that's not the combat radius.

Still compares favourably with the D3A2.

[wdolson]

Neither the Val nor the SBD had folding wings.  That limited the size of the aircraft because it had to fit on an elevator.  The Japanese carriers had fairly small elevators, so that limited the Val's wing span and it's load carrying capacity.

I'm not sure how far the Ju-87C test program got, but it may not have had the needed strength in the wing to handle high g pul out, or a number of high g pull outs.  Aluminum has some different properties from steel and one of them is the way it becomes fatigued over time.  If steel is put under a heavy load, as long as the load isn't big enough to compromise the structural integrity, it will just sit there with that load until rust eats it enough to fail, which can be forever if properly cared for.

Aluminum under the same conditions will eventually fail.  Aircraft regulatory agencies require airframes be periodically inspected for signs that the structure is deteriorating.  About 20 years ago an Aloha Airlines 737 lost the top half of a fuselage section in flight.  This was due to the aluminum failing from repeated pressurizations and depressurizations taking off and landing.  The way Aloha flew their planes, they made more take offs and landing than any ther 737 operator in the world.

Folding wings have limited join points with the rest of the wing.  Parts of it are often steel (as are landing gear struts), but they need to mate with the aluminum at some point, and those join points are stressed with each dive pull out.  The aluminum alloys employed in 1940 were much more advanced than those employed even in 1938.  Metalurgy also varied from country to country.  The US, due to the car industry and the domestic airliner industry were among the world leaders.  The Germans were also quite advanced.  Among the major combatants, Japan and the USSR were trailing the pack.

The Judy had folding wings, but it was a generation newer than the Val.  It may have benefitted from shared metalurgy technology from Germany.  When the Val was designed, just making a carrier dive bomber a monoplane was cutting edge.

Bill

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: borner

Can you imagine the havoc that could have been caused with Gf and a couple groups of these out in the North Atlantic? Or if the KB ha these and not Vals in 42?

Problem with that assumption is 1 GF versus the British Home Fleet with about 6 carriers....the end result is rather predictable. [:D]