WITP AE game engine

[ggm]

I wonder with the increasing power of duo and quad core engines and the operating systems and programming languages increasing in power, would it be possible to increase the witp game engine to cover the whole world war? Would the game code need a complete overhaul or just a increased database?

ggm

[Fallschirmjager]

I have a 2.83 GHZ quad core CPU but only a 166 MHZ Pentium brain
I don't think I can handle much more detail or units than what AE will throw at us. The map already covers 2/3 of the earths surface and throws tens of thousands of aircraft, ships and LCU at us.

[LST Express]

I'm pretty sure I couldn't handle it, but I want it. [:D]

[ggm]

true, it may be a bit much to manage, but with the proper tools like witp tracker and speadsheets etc, plus a good log book and it may just be manageable.
hearts of iron 3 approachs that kind of micro management hell. Also there are a group of bold polish programmers who are making a world scopped game called bitter glory. It hasn't been updated in the last couple of months but does show some promise...

ggm

[DuckofTindalos]

The game would be unplayable. WitP is just barely playable as is.

[ggm]

unplayable or not, if the game engine is sound and the database big enough, it would be interesting if it could be created in the next 10-15 year time scale.

ggm

[Crimguy]

I'm not sure my life has a 10-15 year time scale ;-D

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: ggm

I wonder with the increasing power of duo and quad core engines and the operating systems and programming languages increasing in power, would it be possible to increase the witp game engine to cover the whole world war? Would the game code need a complete overhaul or just a increased database?

ggm

I think it would take a couple of orders of magnitude more development time and effort.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The game would be unplayable. WitP is just barely playable as is.

why should WITP be unplayable, surely not because of the scope of the game. WITP plays just fine and has done so since the release of the first two or three patches.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: ggm

I wonder with the increasing power of duo and quad core engines and the operating systems and programming languages increasing in power, would it be possible to increase the witp game engine to cover the whole world war? Would the game code need a complete overhaul or just a increased database?
ggm

The WITP "engine" is far too rickity to support such developement. The creation of a new engine from the ground up (one that actually had a real "ground combat" sub-system, among other things) would have to be the starting point for any development along these lines.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: LST Express

I'm pretty sure I couldn't handle it, but I want it. [:D]

I feel the same way about Serena Williams...

I doubt that there's any prospect for a global WitP. Seems to me Grigsby et al. tired of the WitP "engine" long ago and moved on to other things (the simpler global war and civil war stuff with area movement, and now back to War in the East).

They won't be returning. There are enough problems still buried in there that were never straightened out completely that it's pretty much a matter of whistling past the graveyard at this point.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

I'm not sure my life has a 10-15 year time scale ;-D

There it is.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: ggm
it would be interesting if it could be created in the next 10-15 year time scale.

ggm

...my gorge rises at it.

[Panther Bait]

Yes, the biggest problem including Europe into a whole world version of WitP is the ground combat engine. Other than the sub campaign, the European war was primarily a land/air war. Almost all the hexes in Europe would have bases and most of the hexes would have railways between them.

Operation Barbarossa had over 300 divisions and thousands of planes spread across something like 800 miles of front. That's only 20 AE hexes or 14 (!!) stock hexes. I can't even imagine.

Then you'd have to implement full economies for everyone. Germany, Italy, UK, India, USA, Russia, France (maybe see below), minor allies (in some manner), neutral nations. And full merchant navies to transport resources all over the place.

And I think you'd have to loosen up the reinforcement system. The fixed reinforcements (with a few triggers here and there) work ok for the Pacific War due to the design assumption/criteria that Europe had first choice and the Pacific gets the rest. So you can make the assumption that even if Japan is doing better than historic, that US/UK production is still governed by the European War and therefore still relatively fixed. You can also make the assumption that Japan's rate of creating new units was probably about maxed out anyway based on their manufacturing and training restrictions. In a whole world scenario, that doesn't really work anymore. Germany and Russia created a staggering number of divisions/brigades during the war, some wholly new, some reorganization of existing decimated units.

Also, do you start the whole world scenario around Dec. 7, 1941 still? Might actually work. It's a natural time to start the Pac War, and the Soviet counteroffensive after Barbarossa/Typhoon started in early December too. Avoids having to model the early war assault into France and the Battle of Britain. Not great in North Africa, since you're halfway through Operation Crusader, although it's about the time that Rommel retreats to Gazala, I suppose.

Mike

[drw61]

It would be interesting but I agree with Terminus it would be unplayable.  Think of how many hours (days) it would take to setup the first turn.  It would have to be made with a lot less micromanagement. 

[Nikademus]

take the total # of Full PBEM campaign games started for WitP (1 day turns) and multiply by zero. Probably a good estimate of the # of games that would conclude successfully within a 5 year period if it were WitW. (war in the World)

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

if it were WitW. (war in the World)

Sounds like we have decided on a name...now lets get started programming it! [:D]

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Knavey

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

if it were WitW. (war in the World)

Sounds like we have decided on a name...now lets get started programming it! [:D]

Okay. First, I think the map ought to be actual size.

[jeffk3510]

I've always thought the entire WW2 would be amazing, but would be a massive time consumer... which is ok I guess.  It would be interesting to see how different it would have to be. 

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: ggm

I wonder with the increasing power of duo and quad core engines and the operating systems and programming languages increasing in power, would it be possible to increase the witp game engine to cover the whole world war? Would the game code need a complete overhaul or just a increased database?

ggm

There are definitely scaleability issues with the current "engine". For example even with AE, the save file size will roughly double vis-a-vis WITP - and this pushes the edge of the envelop in terms of what most people can upload/download with email. So the 1M size goes to about 2M and for Japanese sending two files it will be 4-5M. We tried to keep it under 5M and it will start there - but may grow larger especially for MODs that use all the slots.

Another major issue - whether WITP "engine" is used or not is "searching" ... i.e. many units (air, land and sea) need to determine whether they can "see" each other or not. So it is a fundamental problem for these types of games to come up with an efficient search strategy. We've been able to add enough efficiency improvements into AE (vis-a-vis WITP) to almost offset the additional search time required by the addition of thousands of new units. Of course increasing the number of units (air, land and sea) would just exacerbate this problem.

I doubt anyone will do this project with the current "engine" - but someone might try something like this with a new engine.