Historical Realism

[Shupov]

How well does WitE playtest compared to known historical battles? While WiR is my favorite game the play sometimes lacks historical realism. For example in WiR during 1941 and 1942 most Soviet cities can be reduced from high entrenchment level and captured in one to two weeks. Leningrad (and often Moscow) usually falls in 1941 and the battle of Stalingrad doesn't feel like the all-out battle in the ruins that took months of desperate fighting. Since WitE is a division-level game I hope there will be even more gritty realism than WiR.
There are many well-documented battles (e.g. Smolensk, Moscow, Kursk, Sevastopol and the destruction of Army Group Center in 1944) - are the playtesters recreating those OOB's and trying them out with the new game system? I would love to hear AAR's about those battles and invite suggestions from other Forum contributors.

[Shupov]

Playtesters - have you recreated any historical battles in WitE?  Can you show a screen shot to illustrate?

[Hard Sarge]

I think that question is a little over our rank to respond to

[Joel Billings]

So far the only scenarios we have to test are the campaign (and only the AI has gone past summer of 42), and the Typhoon scenario. I think we are feeling pretty good about how these are playing out now. We are working now on completing Case Blue and 1943 scenarios. The later mid war AI has been tested and adjusted using games that were run into 1942 by a human and then continued on AI vs AI. So as you can see we still have quite a bit of testing and adjusting to do. Of course the more the generic offense and defense AI's can handle in 1941-42, the easier it will be to get it to play reasonably well in later years. We would like to get these and other later war scenarios done soon so testers can give us feedback on those time periods.

As for capturing cities with forts, well, it can be done quickly if there are poor troops in the city and no reserves, otherwise it can be a pain. Backed by good units in reserve, I think you could bang your head against a fortified city (or any good defensive position) for a very long time.

[Frank.Costanzo]

Will Panzer Divisions be broken down into battalions? Such as Armored, Armored Infantry, Mot. Infantry etc..

[Joel Billings]

No, you can break German divisions down into regiments, but not lower. There are many battalions that are assigned to corps HQ to support the divisions. Although they aren't broken down, each unit lists every squad, gun and vehicle that is in the unit, and losses are taken in these items.

[Shupov]

Does artillery bombardment play a large role in WitE? The Soviets often employed their "God of War" especially from 1942 on to shatter defensive lines in advance of their offensives. Witness the hapless Romanians who were subjected to a massive barrage at the outset of the Stalingrad encirclement!

Along the same line, with a 10-mile hex grid can artillery units provide fire support to adjacent units, or is this part of the HQ function?

Are railroad guns included? The great Gustav 800 mm (31.5 inch) gun had a range of 23-29 miles depending on shell type. It was used effectively in the siege of Sevastopal, even though only 48 seven-ton shells were fired. If it is in WitE does it have a two-hex range?

[PyleDriver]

Yes, that aspect is being tested now, where artillery units (besides what is attached to divisions and armies) that don't move can attack 2 hexs, as though they were in range behind front line units. The Soviets have this ability as they created seperate units. German artillery is attached to divisions and corps...

[PyleDriver]

Not sure about the Gustav, I'll ask Joel about that one. The Germans do have the 2 Karl Batt (600mm) units which are 2 mortars each, 3 Heavy Howitzer Batt with 1 355mm and 9 305mm guns and the Theodor Batt with 6 240 mm guns...

[knilli]

Honestly, if I play the campaign I do want to start historically but I do not want to to follow history. I/We know about the mistakes made in WW2 (first was to start the war) but i do not want to be forced to split my forces to go for historical campaign targets. I do want to keep my tanks up at Leningrad and I do want to finish it off, or I might want to do one mighty blow against the center and walk in Napoleons footsteps and conquer Moscow. I do want to be able to retreat from Stalingrad and I do want to avoid loosing my units. Overall, it is a game and I am the one at the "trigger".
I am happy if the game features the loss of units because they where sent to other theaters (Italy, France) but other then that, no thank you.

I have some questions though. It was mentioned that units (Divisions) can be split into Regiments. Is this purely Player decision or does this follow historical Events. I can think of a few German Divisions which did not fight as a whole Division for most of the war in the east, because their Regiments (sub units) where used as "hole fillers" (for example the 3rd German Mountain Division fought for quite a time in - more or less - independent Kampfgruppen). 
Another question: Can independent Regiments/Battalions  be attached to Divisions? I think of - for example - an independent tank regiment/stug battalion. Can I attach them to another Pz Div or an Inf Div to strengthen them or is this not possible?

Again, I am happy to start historically and to have historical production, but everything else I would like to control.

[Shupov]

ORIGINAL: knilli

Honestly, if I play the campaign I do want to start historically but I do not want to to follow history. I/We know about the mistakes made in WW2 (first was to start the war) but i do not want to be forced to split my forces to go for historical campaign targets. I do want to keep my tanks up at Leningrad and I do want to finish it off, or I might want to do one mighty blow against the center and walk in Napoleons footsteps and conquer Moscow. I do want to be able to retreat from Stalingrad and I do want to avoid loosing my units. Overall, it is a game and I am the one at the "trigger".
...
Again, I am happy to start historically and to have historical production, but everything else I would like to control.

I agree with you knilli. My thought for this thread is that the game should play realistically but not force players to follow any course of action. As Soviet commander I want to withdraw my forces from the frontier in June 1941 and not fight futile counterattacks. But even if I do waste hundreds of thousands of lives counterattacking as the Soviets did I would still like the chance to win the war as they did!

[PyleDriver]

It starts historical, everything after that is up to the player, other than production and unit withdrawls...

[Joel Billings]

Breaking down to regiments is at player discretion. There are some weaknesses to being broken down. Certain kinds of support battalions can be attached directly to German divisions and Soviet Corps (at an admin cost).

[knilli]

@Joel: thx.
so I take it, that i can not attach any split regiment to other divisions (as said above for example a tank regiment to a Inf Div - like the german 78 Inf Div became 78 Sturm Div by getting a/some Stug battalions) or reinforce a tank brigade with an Inf Reg?

[Iron Duke]

Will there be enough free/spare slots in the database to breakdown every division into regiments (not somethink i'd do) but is there a limit to how many divisions can be broken down?

In previous GG games there has always seemed to be a shortage of free/spare slots in the databases , how large are the various databases ?

Artwork -- tanks and aircraft are they individual pieces/files or part of a larger palete?

WRT devices -- What is the lowest/smallest individual device represented in the game?

[Joel Billings]

You can break all German and Finnish divisions down if you want to, but you're unlikely to want to as there are some disadvantages to doing so. Can't answer the artwork question yet as various artwork for the items is being done now. Guns, bombs are devices. Units are made up of elements each being a squad, guns or vehicle.

[Shupov]

David Glantz's book says on 31 December 1943 the Red Army had 10 million soldiers assigned to 94 armies, 253 corps and 838 divisions (Colossus Reborn, p.588).  Many were in the Russian interior and Far East but how many units maximum will the Red Army have in WitE? 

[Joel Billings]

I don't know of any limit. There is an admin cost to building units (aside from those that are automatically mobilized, so there is a limit depending on what else you are spending your admin points on). Of course, having more units just spreads your limited manpower around. Seems that on the Eastern Front the Soviets had in the 6-7 million range on the front for most of 43-45.

[harrybo]

A couple of points I haven't seen mentioned in the WITE posts (if they have I'll get new glasses!)
 
1.  How is Soviet disorganisation represented in 41? - Like others I don't want a game that is simply a re-enactment, but I think that this aspect is historically really important in the early part of the campaign. I like that in WIR it's near impossible to combine Soviet counter-attacks in 41 and I'd like to see that extended to other moves/transfers etc. Sure, it should be possible for 'Stalin' to do things like withdraw troops rather than stand and fight, but make it difficult, maybe even on a random basis, so you can never be sure of the effect of your orders until Soviet command becomes better organised.
2. How is the Russian winter effect covered? - in WIR, the blizzard effect has way too big an impact on the Germans and I'd like to see it so that they don't get thrown back nearly to the start lines once the weather turns.

[Helpless]

1. How is Soviet disorganisation represented in 41? - Like others I don't want a game that is simply a re-enactment, but I think that this aspect is historically really important in the early part of the campaign. I like that in WIR it's near impossible to combine Soviet counter-attacks in 41 and I'd like to see that extended to other moves/transfers etc. Sure, it should be possible for 'Stalin' to do things like withdraw troops rather than stand and fight, but make it difficult, maybe even on a random basis, so you can never be sure of the effect of your orders until Soviet command becomes better organised.

Besides the historically bad setup, there plenty penalties for the Soviet player at the start of Barbarossa. Reduced movement points, low exp, low morale, etc. There are big surprise bonuses for the Germans during the first turn. Things like leaders initiative roll make many things quite random.

2. How is the Russian winter effect covered? - in WIR, the blizzard effect has way too big an impact on the Germans and I'd like to see it so that they don't get thrown back nearly to the start lines once the weather turns.

It's a subject of further test and tuning. There is some measures German player could take to soften first winter effect, ex. place units in the towns/cites (there is quite a few of them)