Midgets

[Q-Ball]

Just curious......has anyone tried to use alot of midget subs, and what kind of results are you seeing beyond the PH attack?

The PH midgets seem to get a hit in every once in awhile, plus losing all the subs.

IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Just curious......has anyone tried to use alot of midget subs, and what kind of results are you seeing beyond the PH attack?

The PH midgets seem to get a hit in every once in awhile, plus losing all the subs.

IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others

Q-Ball,

Other than the PH attacks, I never plan to use them.

As you stated, IRL they weren't worth the effort. I see no reason not to learn from that lesson. [:)]

Regards,
Feltan

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Just curious......has anyone tried to use alot of midget subs, and what kind of results are you seeing beyond the PH attack?

The PH midgets seem to get a hit in every once in awhile, plus losing all the subs.

IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others

Q-Ball,

Other than the PH attacks, I never plan to use them.

As you stated, IRL they weren't worth the effort. I see no reason not to learn from that lesson. [:)]

Regards,
Feltan

I'd recommend that you do use them. Grab a couple and the big I-Boats that can carry them and stage a raid on a major rear area base (Sydney, San Francisco, Bombay maybe). You might catch your opponent with no ASW assets assigned to protect his rear area harbors. And once you do raid once or twice, he will have no option but to assign such assets - which he badly needs elsewhere.

[John Lansford]

I figure that's what those YP's are for since you can't assign them to transport or escort duties.  Of course, I've only got them on the WC and am using anything with a DC thrower right now in Australia for anti-sub duties...

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Feltan
IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others

As you stated, IRL they weren't worth the effort. I see no reason not to learn from that lesson. [:)]

You guys are going to break BRADY's heart saying things like that..... [:D]

[PeteG662]

Only thing I use midgets for is throwing.....fun pub game! [:'(]

[Mike Solli]

Anyone know offhand which subs can carry midgets?

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
... I'd recommend that you do use them. Grab a couple and the big I-Boats that can carry them and stage a raid on a major rear area base (Sydney, San Francisco, Bombay maybe). You might catch your opponent with no ASW assets assigned to protect his rear area harbors. And once you do raid once or twice, he will have no option but to assign such assets - which he badly needs elsewhere.

Don,

That is an interesting idea. However, widespread use of midgets would be ahistorical.

In real life, the Japanese deployed less than 50 midgets (although more were built, they didn't leave the HI area), and only about 15 saw action. They never met the expectations of the IJN. If I recall correctly, they were used at PH, Sydney, Ulithi, Okinawa and Guam; they sank about 5 ships. However, it is an interesting option.

Another interesting option would be for the Japanese to use their subs to mine enemy ports. Which they did historically to much greater affect than the use of midgets for less expediture of resources. Keeping Allied mine sweeping resources tied up at rear area ports is, in my opinion, an equally valid goal -- and one more in line with historical reality.

Regards,
Feltan

[CEDeaton]

Alas, with the advent of AE and the Mine Tenders, gone are the days of 9000 mine defenses. [:(]

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: CraigDeaton

Alas, with the advent of AE and the Mine Tenders, gone are the days of 9000 mine defenses. [:(]

Craig,

For most of the Pacific islands, I am happy those days are gone. The under water geography simply would not allow for massive mine fields around Iwo Jima, Truk, Saipan, etc. The water was too deep and the currents too strong to maintain anything other than a few mines for harbor defense. I maintain the problem with mine warfare in WITP was not mines, it was how the depth of the ocean was modelled on the map. Atols and some islands should not be coastal hexes, they should be deep water.

Regards,
Feltan

[Sardaukar]

AI tried to use them against me in Colombo, but carrier sub hit mine and midgets got stuck in sub net... Talk about surprise. And I formed ASW TF just in case...that was promptly sunk by KB air attack next day...[:o]

Great stuff, I am enjoying the game. [8D]

[Brady]

All you ever wanted to know about Midgets:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/midgets.htm

[Mike Solli]

Has anyone considered using the midgets assigned to attack PH somewhere else?

[CEDeaton]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: CraigDeaton

Alas, with the advent of AE and the Mine Tenders, gone are the days of 9000 mine defenses. [:(]

Craig,

For most of the Pacific islands, I am happy those days are gone. The under water geography simply would not allow for massive mine fields around Iwo Jima, Truk, Saipan, etc. The water was too deep and the currents too strong to maintain anything other than a few mines for harbor defense. I maintain the problem with mine warfare in WITP was not mines, it was how the depth of the ocean was modelled on the map. Atols and some islands should not be coastal hexes, they should be deep water.

Regards,
Feltan

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they were very realistic, but it sure was fun to watch! [:D]

[Dili]

In real life, the Japanese deployed less than 50 midgets (although more were built, they didn't leave the HI area), and only about 15 saw action. They never met the expectations of the IJN. If I recall correctly, they were used at PH, Sydney, Ulithi, Okinawa and Guam;

"In May 1942 Ramillies was still in the Indian Ocean and was sent to cover the Allied invasion of Madagascar. On 29 May 1942, a reconnaissance plane from the Japanese submarine I-10 spotted Ramillies at anchor in Diego Suarez harbour. Ramillies changed berth after the plane was seen. However, the Japanese submarines I-16 and I-20 launched two midget submarines, one of which, commanded by Lieutenant Saburo Akieda, managed to penetrate the harbour and to fire its two torpedoes. The first torpedo severely damaged Ramillies at about 20:25; the second sank the oil tanker British Loyalty at 21:20. Lieutenant Akieda came under depth charge attack from the corvettes Genista and Thyme but managed to beach his submarine and flee inland with Petty Officer Masami Takemoto. Both were killed in a firefight with Royal Marines three days later.

Ramillies was reported sunk by the Japanese, but in fact was merely severely damaged. She was towed to Durban for temporary repairs, then in August 1942 she returned to Plymouth under her own steam and was back in service in June 1943." Wikiquote

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: Feltan



Don,

That is an interesting idea. However, widespread use of midgets would be ahistorical.

I think historical play goes out the window as soon as the players make thier first turn.

[m10bob]

Japanese midgets.

[Iridium]

Nice Afro.

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Knavey

ORIGINAL: Feltan



Don,

That is an interesting idea. However, widespread use of midgets would be ahistorical.

I think historical play goes out the window as soon as the players make thier first turn.

Knavey,

Certainly you are correct to a point. The game is not scripted, you do not have to follow historical paths.

I appreciate the option of using midget subs to a greater extent than was historically possible. I think that is neat. I like it.

The point I was making above is that if options are important, and I think they are, I am dismayed that I couldn't use mines more aggressively. Such use has more historical precident, is economically more advantageous, and produces better results based on historical outcomes.

I should have been more clear.

Regards,
Feltan

[Local Yokel]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Just curious......has anyone tried to use alot of midget subs, and what kind of results are you seeing beyond the PH attack?

The PH midgets seem to get a hit in every once in awhile, plus losing all the subs.

IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others

Although it's arguable the Japanese could/should have got more out of their midgets, I disagree that the midget concept wasn't worth the effort. On the contrary, I suggest that they showed themselves to be one of the more successful innovations of WW2 as a means of attacking capital ships in their home base. As evidence of this I look to Operation Source: the RN X craft attack on Tirpitz, and de la Pene/Bianchi's superlative SLC attack on Valiant and QE at Alexandria (underwater work being something at which the Italians have excelled from Egypt onwards). And Dili beat me to it by pointing out that the IJN can point to Diego Suarez as a qualified success, at least.

Actually, I wonder whether the AE team have let an opportunity slip. Why doesn't the RN get some XE craft in 1945, wherewith to emulate the extraordinarily courageous attack of Fraser and Magennis in XE-3 upon the Takao at Singapore? Or did I miss something in the reinforcement queue?