Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise?

[CEDeaton]

I just started a PBEM GC with a non-historic first turn and Dec 7th surprise set to ON.

After investing the better part of a week in my first-turn setup, the Allies were seemingly unrestricted and were able to completely empty their ports of any meaningful target during their first turn. What's up with that? I'd say that kind of first turn for the Allies represents anything but a Dec 7th surprise (unless the intent was to be ironic!).

While I like the ability to do this as an option if Dec 7th surprise is turned off, I'd certainly never even consider a game that took that away from the Japanese, unless I wanted to see just how FUBAR it was possible to make the Japanese situation from day one.

Is this something that was overlooked in testing? It seems unimaginable that such a thing would have been missed.

Is there any discussion about this being patched so it behaves more like the original Dec 7th surprise in vanila WITP, or is this meant to only be addressed through "house rules"?

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: CraigDeaton

I just started a PBEM GC with a non-historic first turn and Dec 7th surprise set to ON.

After investing the better part of a week in my first-turn setup, the Allies were seemingly unrestricted and were able to completely empty their ports of any meaningful target during their first turn. What's up with that? I'd say that kind of first turn for the Allies represents anything but a Dec 7th surprise (unless the intent was to be ironic!).

While I like the ability to do this as an option if Dec 7th surprise is turned off, I'd certainly never even consider a game that took that away from the Japanese, unless I wanted to see just how FUBAR it was possible to make the Japanese situation from day one.

Is this something that was overlooked in testing? It seems unimaginable that such a thing would have been missed.

Is there any discussion about this being patched so it behaves more like the original Dec 7th surprise in vanila WITP, or is this meant to only be addressed through "house rules"?

House rules. Neither Manila nor Pearl should have been caught with their pants down.

[CEDeaton]

ORIGINAL: herwin
House rules. Neither Manila nor Pearl should have been caught with their pants down.

Perhaps we shouldn't have been caught with our pants down, but that's a counter-factual argument, since we were.

One of the best things about the original game was the ability to change the initial Japanese battle plan up a bit, while still allowing the Japanese to achieve surprise. So it begs the question as to why we kept the toggle for Dec 7th surprise when it can't really be achieved except in the stock setup?

Matrix Devs - Chalk up one vote for a return to the way things were, in this regard. The rest of what I've seen looks damn good though.

[vonSchnitter]

Well CD,

I guess "herwin" choose to be ambiguous - probably due to his stated carreer as an "Computational neuroethologist" - or being boozed.

Just the simple things:

a) Non historical 1st means: BOTH sides in a PBM can make adjustments to their forces pretty much as they like.
b) Surprise just means: for the first move special rules apply - like allied air assets ar caught on the ground etc.
c) Both rules are in no way linked.

The ai has no way to take advantage of a - a PBM player might.
May I recommend to have a close look at the rule book ? Sounds condescending, I know.
But in this case it is as simple as that.

If you need house rules for a scenariao like this, have a look at the WitP forum.

Cheers

[ChickenOfTheSea]

This is a very important issue for opponents to discuss before starting a PBEM. Non-historical means non-historical for both sides, so you need to agree on how much flexibility each side has in the opening.

[CEDeaton]

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Well CD,

I guess "herwin" choose to be ambiguous - probably due to his stated carreer as an "Computational neuroethologist" - or being boozed.

Just the simple things:

a) Non historical 1st means: BOTH sides in a PBM can make adjustments to their forces pretty much as they like.
b) Surprise just means: for the first move special rules apply - like allied air assets ar caught on the ground etc.
c) Both rules are in no way linked.

The ai has no way to take advantage of a - a PBM player might.
May I recommend to have a close look at the rule book ? Sounds condescending, I know.
But in this case it is as simple as that.

If you need house rules for a scenariao like this, have a look at the WitP forum.

Cheers

I saw that in the manual. It's rather silent to what ships can and cannot do. One might assume that if a plane can't run a mission, getting battleships underway would be even more impossible. Apparently, this is wrong on both counts. I offer as exhibit A a snipet from the Combat report:

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 5
SBD-3 Dauntless x 37
TBD-1 Devastator x 12


Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 10 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CA Tone
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage

I guess that line about "the Allies will launch no airstrikes" is also an error. [X(]

[vonSchnitter]

Well Craig,

do not get me wrong please - but it looks like you are quite new to this type of game.

Do not feel bad about it - just imagine that any of the "know alls", big post count chaps - including me, even though I do not fall in any of the categories - made the same sort of mistakes or rather false assumptions as you did - when they started. Many moons before ...

And of course, the manual - and to some extend the game testing - caters for those old hands familiar with things for a decade or more.
Which does not mean the manual is right - all the time. Far from it ..

Nevertheless because of this:

Is this attack on IJN Carriers in the afternoon pulse ? If so, it is fine. It just should be explained in the rule book explixitly.
If not - you have a VERY valid issue.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Well Craig,

do not get me wrong please - but it looks like you are quite new to this type of game.

Do not feel bad about it - just imagine that any of the "know alls", big post count chaps - including me, even though I do not fall in any of the categories - made the same sort of mistakes or rather false assumptions as you did - when they started. Many moons before ...

And of course, the manual - and to some extend the game testing - caters for those old hands familiar with things for a decade or more.
Which does not mean the manual is right - all the time. Far from it ..

Nevertheless because of this:

Is this attack on IJN Carriers in the afternoon pulse ? If so, it is fine. It just should be explained in the rule book explixitly.
If not - you have a VERY valid issue.

The Japanese expected something of the sort to happen--they didn't expect to get away scot free. They were running the op on a shoestring--at one time in the planning they considered scuttling the Hiryu and Soryu because they couldn't figure out how to provide enough fuel to get them back home afterwards. Anything that produces a bit of variation during the Japanese happy time is probably a good idea. There should be the flavour that the Japanese were walking a tight-rope, and eventually fell off in June 1942.

That's why I came up with my War Plan Orange limited war rules. They change the dynamics of the game at the cost of not doing a Pearl Harbour. Now the USN has to force things and may walk into a big battle when not ready for it.

[vonSchnitter]

sorry herwin,

this one does not need any historical extemporations.

Things are very clear and simple:

If the IJN carriers get attacked by USN carrier planes in the morning pulse - the composition of the attackers suggest a carrier based force - the rule book is wrong. Simple case. The surprise part.

If the IJN CVs get attacked in the afternoon pulse - all is fine.

In this case the jap player got too close to PH (by old WitP standards)- to avoid op losses/increase his strike force intentionally - without regard to allied carriers in the vicinity and their ability to close in and strike back. (Did not test in AE to be honest)

Or - the reaction thing has struck. If so - we all owe one to CD - because the old hands would have taken ages to find this.

Your argument may have some value if surprise is off - never tested or played it.

[CEDeaton]

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Well Craig,

do not get me wrong please - but it looks like you are quite new to this type of game.

Hmmm. Wargaming since 1975, computer gaming since 1983, bought UV, WITP and WPO practically the day they came out. Yeah, I'm a noob! [;)]

Just NEVER saw anything like that on Dec 7th. I certainly saw no reason to expect it with Dec 7th surprise set to on. It was an afternoon attack though. Guess I just rolled snake-eyes!

It's always pilot error. Sometimes the idiot just doesn't know how to fly a broken plane.

[Mynok]

If I'm Japanese I love to see Allied ships at sea when KB arrives. It means a lot more sinkings and less loss of my planes and pilots.

As far as afternoon attacks, well, the Witp AI was too stupid for that, and no PBEM guy is going to risk his Allied carriers in the face of KB that early in the game. It's not that it couldn't happen before....just not likely for the reasons I stated.

Now, you'd best expect an aggressive AI.

[vonSchnitter]

Sorry Craig,

I just went by your post count and drew some assumptions - I hope you noticed I at least tried to handle a percieved noobs concerns with as much TLC as possible ? [:D]

Anyway: Did you change the destination hex of KB ? If so which one - if I may ask.

Some of us old and hardened WitP PBMers ([8D]) still believe that the KB is out of danger if left unaltered..

By the way who is your PBM partner - just to laud him - and avoid him ...[:D])

[Mynok]

Guh! I just realized this WAS a PBEM. That's a gutsy opponent indeed.......

Hope you set Naval Attack on your carriers for Dec 8th. [:D]

[vonSchnitter]

Sorry Mynok,

I know you little black guys have special skills but:

look at the disposition of the KB aircraft in AE before your greet any naval opposition.
Tell me about your findings - so I do not need to look myselves. [:D]

And yes, the allied player in this PBM has guts - plenty.

Better to know about the possibility of this, right ?

oops - the martians beat me [:'(]

[CEDeaton]

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Sorry Craig,

I just went by your post count and drew some assumptions - I hope you noticed I at least tried to handle a percieved noobs concerns with as much TLC as possible ? [:D]

Anyway: Did you change the destination hex of KB ? If so which one - if I may ask.

Some of us old and hardened WitP PBMers ([8D]) still believe that the KB is out of danger if left unaltered..

By the way who is your PBM partner - just to laud him - and avoid him ...[:D])

In the past I'd have kept this little surprise to myself, but since it now appears pointless... What I did was I split off Shokaku and Zuikaku and a small escort and hit San Diego. I was willing to trade several BBs in order to take out the Saratoga. Unfortunately, since he was able to sortie everything with the revised turn one rules, it wasn't even in the port (obviously) and this battle actually took place near San Clemente island.

[mjk428]

Best thread ever.

[vonSchnitter]

As far as ceative goes: Pretty impressive.
Just change the detached CVs airgroup missions - naval attack, with port attack as secondary.
And look at the CV airgroup sizes.

I am just glad to have smelled the afternoon strike thing - else you would have got me.
Never heard of a move like this.

[CEDeaton]

I specialize in unheard-of moves. So does my opponent. We've been playing PBEM games for about 10 years now and it's seldom a dull moment.

[vonSchnitter]

Just one more - just out of curiosity:

Warp type moves are supposed to be reserved in AE to some specific TFs in Non-Historic openings. Right ?

So the rest of you carriers is now somewhere close to Etorufo - the point of departure ?

Am I missing something ?

[CEDeaton]

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Just one more - just out of curiosity:

Warp type moves are supposed to be reserved in AE to some specific TFs in Non-Historic openings. Right ?

So the rest of you carriers is now somewhere close to Etorufo - the point of departure ?

Am I missing something ?

Take a bit of shuffling, but all four of those task forces will warp, so you can make up multiple Air Combat TFs by changing the TF type on one of the other three to Escort and then adding a carrier.

I'm giving away entirely too many secrets here...