Japanese excess Merchant Yard points at start and what to do with it

[seydlitz_slith]

In scenario 1 (full campaign) Japan has surplus merchant shipyard capacity at game start to the turn of 350-400 points a turn. Some people are turning off the excess capacity to bank HI. Others are leaving them on and banking the surplus points. However, I think that there is yet another option that should be considered and that is using the surplus to selectively accelerate a few key merchant ships.

For a total of 372 merchant shipyard points (about what the surplus is each turn) you could advance the following ships:

xAP Teiko Maru 2150 troop capacity due: 02 June 42 accelerate to get in late February-early March
xAP Teia Maru 2500 troop capacity due: 01 June 42 same
xAP Tenzan Maru 2000 troop capacity due: 09 Oct 42 accelerate to get in in May
xAP Teiritsu Maru 1700 troop capacity due: 10 June 42 accelerate to get in early March
xAP Teibi Maru 1700 troop capacity due: 01 June 42 same
TK Okigawa Maru 8150 oil capacity due 08 APR 42 accelerate to get in late Jan-early Feb
TK Akawe Maru 8150 oil capacity due 06 May 42 accel to get in early Feb
TK Manei Maru 8150 oil capacity due 08 Jun 42 accel to get in late Feb
TK Ayazon Maru 8150 oil capacity due 08 Jun 42 same
TK Ceram Maru 8150 oil capacity due 01 Sep 42 accel to get in late April

This is in fact most of the tankers that Japan gets in 1942. There are a couple of additional 8150 capacity tankers that arrive after October 42 that you could make some trade offs to accelerate as well. There is also the TK Nitiei Maru, an 11,600 oil capacity tanker with an October arrival date. However I recommend not accelerating her because she costs 30 per turn plus an additional 60 per turn to accelerate. Compare this with the 19 per turn plus 38 additional to accelerate the 8150 capacity units. Better to turn and do 2 8150 units than the one bigger unit.

My thinking is that Japan will need these larger xAP in the spring to be able to efficiently reposition land combat units. One ship that can carry 2000 troops uses a lot less fuel than 6 ships carrying about 350 troops plus these ships are faster (17-23 kts). Besides, by that time you will be wanting to use your xAK to haul resources back home so these ships would be a force multiplier.

On the tankers, you need to get as much capacity in action as fast as possible. You only have until Jan 43 before the allied torpedoes start to get better so you need to move as much oil or fuel from the SRA as possible during that window. My guess is that the payback of getting these ships in the spring far outweighs the benefits of banking the shipyard or HI points. In fact, by accelerating them early, you will have them ready around the time the oil wells are captured.

Beyond that, as I got points availabe, I would invest in accelerating the Japanese "E" escorts that are scheduled to arrive in mid 43+ such as the Etoforu class. It is a cheap investment to cherry pick some of the better Japanese escorts and would give you more "capable" escorts right around the point where the allied dud rate starts to drop.


Lastly, on the Naval side, I am considering the JFB heresy of suspending construction on Yamato and Musashi. They are impressive ships, but together they consume 466 points of naval points each turn that could be used to accelerate construction on other ships that will be operationally more useful. The reality is that these beasts are short ranged and are real fuel hogs. The last thing that a fuel strapped Japanese player will need in early 43 is two large ships that have a tendency to suck all of the fuel out of a port and require either a huge port or a very large port plus an army of nav support just to rearm their guns. I predict that users will find that they are now much less usefull as a weapon than they were in witp.

Very open to comments or observations here.

[romanovich]

Doesn't it take both Yamato and Musashi now to sink Boise?

ORIGINAL: jazman

ORIGINAL: RHoenig

Well, not a huge convoy, but I met Boise when I tried to intercept

From the signature maker:

"Famous last words: I tried to intercept, then I met Boise..."

[Takeshi]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz


Beyond that, as I got points availabe, I would invest in accelerating the Japanese "E" escorts that are scheduled to arrive in mid 43+ such as the Etoforu class. It is a cheap investment to cherry pick some of the better Japanese escorts and would give you more "capable" escorts right around the point where the allied dud rate starts to drop.


Lastly, on the Naval side, I am considering the JFB heresy of suspending construction on Yamato and Musashi. They are impressive ships, but together they consume 466 points of naval points each turn that could be used to accelerate construction on other ships that will be operationally more useful. The reality is that these beasts are short ranged and are real fuel hogs. The last thing that a fuel strapped Japanese player will need in early 43 is two large ships that have a tendency to suck all of the fuel out of a port and require either a huge port or a very large port plus an army of nav support just to rearm their guns. I predict that users will find that they are now much less usefull as a weapon than they were in witp.

Very open to comments or observations here.

Do the escorts use naval shipyard points or merchant shipyard points?

[seydlitz_slith]

E,PB,SC use merchant points, not naval.

[BaitBoy]

Do CVEs still use merchant ship points, and if so, do the CVE's need these excess points?

[seydlitz_slith]

CVEs still use merchant points, but to be honest I think you are better off not building them. They don't carry enough planes, can't stand up to damage, and when the allies sink them they give him a disproportionate number of victory points relative to their true worth.

Now, given the way the map and mechanics have changed in AE, they might be useful as ASW platforms or as aircraft ferries taking planes to distant bases.

[Mynok]

CVE's are for ASW. You'll want them but halting them for a bit is not a bad thought. Definitely halt Shinano. Y and M...well, if BBs are as nerfed as the surface combat threads seem to indicate, maybe halting them is a good idea. Put those points into accelerating carriers.

[Iridium]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


CVE's are for ASW. You'll want them but halting them for a bit is not a bad thought. Definitely halt Shinano. Y and M...well, if BBs are as nerfed as the surface combat threads seem to indicate, maybe halting them is a good idea. Put those points into accelerating carriers.

I'm hoping the BB issue gets fixed, otherwise why bother with Pearl Harbor; go ambush US CV fleets with those valuable carrier pilots instead.

[tigercub]

Seydlitz Thanks very much for your input lots of good points here as i have not started my campaign( in fear of losing key naval units to a bug) and waiting for the patch in the hope it will fix naval combat problems, Myself i want the Y&M even if they sit round a lot like they did in the war doing Nil,But the rest of what you are saying i will mostly imperilment. 

Tiger!

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: tigercub

Seydlitz Thanks very much for your input lots of good points here as i have not started my campaign( in fear of losing key naval units to a bug) and waiting for the patch in the hope it will fix naval combat problems, Myself i want the Y&M even if they sit round a lot like they did in the war doing Nil,But the rest of what you are saying i will mostly imperilment. 

Tiger!

Yes, it is hard to bring one's self to halt either one. I haven't done it myself yet even though I know I probably should. Every time I think about it I close my eyes and see the Fuso steaming along thinking "do I really want that as one of my front line battle ships?" Still, Admiral Yamamoto was right. Neither ship should have been built. They cost so much to build and during the war they mostly swung around the mooring bouy.

[crsutton]

Yes, good ideas. And helpful as I am just teaching myself how to play Japan in anticipation of my first campaign. However, it just don't seem right for JFBs to have the chance to discontinue the Y&M twins. Perhaps if it becomes SOP for Japanese players it should come attached with a big PP penalty. After all, those two fat boys were nothing but floating sacks of PPs anyways. I would think there would have been a near mutiny in the Navy if construction were stopped. Just a thought.

Besides you are gonna need something to soak up those 1,000 lb bombs. [;)]

[tigercub]

Well i still think i can use them in the right place and at the right time early in the game before the horde!(I live in hope)


Tiger!

[Iridium]

Yamato and Musashi have a place in the IJN, it just isn't as great as they anticipated. I can picture someone using them as Amphibious Landing flagships to suppress return fire or as part of a guard fleet for invasions. The occasional bombardment would be fine, the biggest issue is their fuel consumption...they require a lot of it.[:D]

Both BBs are well armored and can/should be able to take some decent punishment. Speaking of which, why hasn't someone run a Yamato class durability test after bitching about how their 66k ton BB sank after taking 2 torps? [:'(] (I haven't played any game far enough to get either behemoths so it'll be interesting to see how the new damage engine etc has effected their survivability)

[SireChaos]

ORIGINAL: Iridium

Yamato and Musashi have a place in the IJN, it just isn't as great as they anticipated. I can picture someone using them as Amphibious Landing flagships to suppress return fire or as part of a guard fleet for invasions. The occasional bombardment would be fine, the biggest issue is their fuel consumption...they require a lot of it.[:D]

Both BBs are well armored and can/should be able to take some decent punishment. Speaking of which, why hasn't someone run a Yamato class durability test after bitching about how their 66k ton BB sank after taking 2 torps? [:'(] (I haven't played any game far enough to get either behemoths so it'll be interesting to see how the new damage engine etc has effected their survivability)

They have a place, sure. But is their place worth spending 5 and 11 months´ worth, respectively, of 233 Naval Yard points per day? That´s roughly 35000 and 77000 points you could be using for something else. Like accelerating the Unryu class carriers, for example.

[Iridium]

You can already accelerate half of those CVs by halting the Japanese sub construction program. They have an inordinate drain on Naval Points and 3 of them halted can pay for 1 CV acceleration. Why dump the Yamatos when this can be done? IJN subs tend to just get killed by ASW late war anyhow.

[SireChaos]

ORIGINAL: Iridium

You can already accelerate half of those CVs by halting the Japanese sub construction program. They have an inordinate drain on Naval Points and 3 of them halted can pay for 1 CV acceleration. Why dump the Yamatos when this can be done? IJN subs tend to just get killed by ASW late war anyhow.

And battleships tend to get sunk by aircraft. So?

Japanese submarines are way more useful than these two oversized battleships.

[Iridium]

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

ORIGINAL: Iridium

You can already accelerate half of those CVs by halting the Japanese sub construction program. They have an inordinate drain on Naval Points and 3 of them halted can pay for 1 CV acceleration. Why dump the Yamatos when this can be done? IJN subs tend to just get killed by ASW late war anyhow.

And battleships tend to get sunk by aircraft. So?

Japanese submarines are way more useful than these two oversized battleships.

I beg to differ, you can add them to slower CV fleets for AA support etc but clearly you think they're useless chattel so I won't bother any further.

[Mark VII]

Surely the little AE naval combat glitch will be fixed so the IJN will be fighting closer to historical. I would build at least the Yamato, since she is already half built at the beginning of the game and arrives in mid 1942. In WitP, I have found her very usefull and would expect to find the same in AE despite the fuel issues.

[herwin]

I believe the surplus is to cover the costs of the midget subs.

[SireChaos]

ORIGINAL: Iridium

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

ORIGINAL: Iridium

You can already accelerate half of those CVs by halting the Japanese sub construction program. They have an inordinate drain on Naval Points and 3 of them halted can pay for 1 CV acceleration. Why dump the Yamatos when this can be done? IJN subs tend to just get killed by ASW late war anyhow.

And battleships tend to get sunk by aircraft. So?

Japanese submarines are way more useful than these two oversized battleships.

I beg to differ, you can add them to slower CV fleets for AA support etc but clearly you think they're useless chattel so I won't bother any further.

There´s no need to get snippy... or put words into other people´s mouths.

I didn´t say they were useless... just that are not nearly useful enough to justify the enormeous investment needed to finish them - at least not while there are other, more useful ships remain to be built. I fully intend to build the Yamatos, once Unryus and Taiho are finished. But carriers come first. With the points saved by halting the Yamatos, it should be possible to accelerate the Unryus so much that they can all be finished in ´43, rather than at a point when they are only bomber bait.