Japanese xAK Efficiency

[Mike Solli]

Well, I'm finally starting work on the Japanese 7 Dec turn. [;)] Of course, at the beginning of the war the Japanese player will pretty much use the xAKs as they are available. With time though, I expect to slowly migrate certain ships to certain areas fpr certain purposes. Two of those purposes are to move troops and cargo.

There are several things to consider when deciding what type of xAK to use for specific purposes. The primary consideration is the port size. This determines the maximum TF tonnage.

There are three ways to solve this problem.

1. You can create a large TF, move it to the destination, then break it into smaller TFs and have each TF in succession load/unload while the other(s) wait their turn.

2. You can create a TF where the cargo ship tonnage is the maximum for the destination port and then assign escorts on top of that. When the TF reaches the destination, strip off the escorts and let the cargo TF load/unload.

3. You can create a TF where the cargos and escort do not exceed the maximum for the destination port. When it arrives, it can begin to load/unload as is.

Each has strengths and weaknesses. I feel that the first is least efficient because there are ships that sit at the destination and must wait their turn. The second is most efficient, but it is also most dangerous. The cargos have no escort in the TF while at the destination making them vulnerable to all sorts of nasty Allied platforms. I like the third option the best. The tailor made TF has escorts at all times and can load/unload without complications.

Next, I decided to look at the efficiency of each type of xAK. There are three ways to look at each ship:

1. Troop carrier
2. Cargo carrier
3. Overall for troop carrying (troop + cargo/3)

For troop carriers, of course the -t conversion is best. I did discover that there is an error in the manual. It states that when the -t conversion occurs, 33% of the cargo space is converted into troop carrying space. Actually, only 25% of the cargo space is converted.

Cargo carrying is obviously for hauling supply and resources as well as oil and fuel when needed.

The Overall comparison is for hauling troops using the cargo space with the 1/3 efficiency factored in.

I've attached the spreadsheet. The top three in each category are green and #4-6 are yellow.

Enjoy!

[Mike Solli]

Oh yeah, something interesting. The fastest xAKs are least efficient. But, they are fast......

[d0mbo]

looks great, even though i havent even started to dabble with the GC
 
Perhaps it's an idea to add charts/tools like this to the Historiker Wiki intitiative?
 
 

[Historiker]

Thank you!

[Gilbert]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Oh yeah, something interesting. The fastest xAKs are least efficient. But, they are fast......

Mike,
Thanks for the spreadsheet. I think, to minimize ennemy threats, a TF should be the most homogeneous possible, regarding speed, i.e. create it with the same speed for all ships as much as possible.

regards
Gilbert

[Mike Solli]

I agree with you, Gilbert. I'm in the process of "creating" canned cargo TFs based on port size and TF speed.

[Gilbert]

Then, Mike, in your opinion, considering the lack of IJN escorts and the poor ASW skills, what would be the best compromise ratio Transport/Escorts for an average TF sent near the front lines areas to reduce possible losses?

TIA
Gilbert

[Historiker]

The most inefficiant are the ones you'd prefer to supply exposed bases as loosing them isn't that bad as loosing better ones.
So in this case, their higher speed is perfect for the mission I intend to give them!

[SireChaos]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

The most inefficiant are the ones you'd prefer to supply exposed bases as loosing them isn't that bad as loosing better ones.
So in this case, their higher speed is perfect for the mission I intend to give them!

For exposed bases, I think I prefer the smallest ships available, as they´d unload in the shortest time.

[Don Bowen]

Couple of quick points.

First, the troops in cargo space usage rate is not x3. It varies by ship type - there is a chart in the manual.

Second, unused dock space is considered in the unload rates for undocked TFs. Emulates individual ships moving to the docks, unloading, moving out, another moving in. Not exactly done that way programatically, but if you have a TF that is too large to dock you still get a benefit from unused dock space.

And remember, ports now have ops limits (daily capacity limits) so cargo loads are also important. Smaller ships might unload in one day - larger ones could take much longer.

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Second, unused dock space is considered in the unload rates for undocked TFs. Emulates individual ships moving to the docks, unloading, moving out, another moving in. Not exactly done that way programatically, but if you have a TF that is too large to dock you still get a benefit from unused dock space.

Good info, Don. Thanks. Does the same thing apply to load as well?

[Mike Solli]

Thanks Don. I looked at that chart and saw a factor of 3 for troops using xAK cargo space. Did I misunderstand? I interpreted it as 1 load point of troops use 3 cargo load points? I am talking only about xAKs in this thread.

Also, what happens first, loading or unloading? That can be significant.

The way I intrepret the chart is the same way Don explained it. I see the smaller ships out on the fringe for the most part where they can load/unload quickly.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

Then, Mike, in your opinion, considering the lack of IJN escorts and the poor ASW skills, what would be the best compromise ratio Transport/Escorts for an average TF sent near the front lines areas to reduce possible losses?

TIA
Gilbert

Gilbert, I've been pondering that. I think it depends on the port and how much stuff needs to be picked up. I want to try to have enough ships available to pick up a full load in 1-2 days max. That means to me that I want a number of small cargo ships. Then I'll add escorts to the max allowable tonnage. If there aren't enough escorts (and I'm not yet sure what "enough" means) then we can always have an ASW TF follow the cargo TF. I'm hoping to start to figure this delimma out later today.

[jwilkerson]

How to move troops and supply as Japanese?

Large troop elements. If transporting, then move from large port to large port or prepare to wait a long time for loading and unloading. Else use amphibous TF, these load and unload faster when not docked.

Best to carefully plan out troop loading and use multiple ports to load larger forces. I don't work it out by points, but I have a vague idea what is possible based on playing the game. But when I want to load a lot of units quickly I try to spread out and use more than one port.

Actually, all the above applies to both sides equally. Also both sides have some fast transports - make sure you exploit their speed.

For instance, in our 2x2 game with Nik and I as Japan (and Rob and Tony as Allies) Nik wanted me to send some engineers and aviation troops to him. I was loading in Formosa, but I was using the Western ports for my Luzon invasion so I sent these troops for Nik to the NE port. And I would be in a hurry, so I pruned the fastest AP and escorts and sent them there as well. I used Amphibious mode to avoid port issues on both ends. Once the transports were loaded and at sea, I cranked up the speed so they could arrive more quickly. In the event, these troops were able to unload at Davao, the turn after Nik captured it, thus giving him extra capability when needed. So in this case I both spread out my loading and used fast transports to carry critical troops to a distant port quickly.

[Mike Solli]

Very interesting. Thanks Joe.

[d0mbo]

Ok, here i am, probably stupid again, but i hope you guys are willing to answer my question.

I have an xAK with a troop cap of 480 and cargo of say.... 3000. Do i understand correctly if i can load more troops onto it, 480 + 1000 (1/3*3000) = 1480?
Or does the equipment of the unit that i want to transport count as well?

The mind boggles at all the posibilities in this simulation, lol.

[Mike Solli]

If you load a unit that has both troops and cargo (I think) it'll work this way. The troops fill the troop space and the cargo fills the cargo space. If there's extra cargo remaining, you'll need another ship. If there is extra cargo space and you have more troops, they'll fill the cargo space using a certain factor. The chart on page 121 says that Japanese troops filling xAK cargo space does so at a factor of 3. I believe that means that 1 load point of troops take 3 points of cargo space.

[Mike Solli]

Oh yeah, that's definitely not a stupid question. We're all learning here. [:)]

[Gilbert]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

Then, Mike, in your opinion, considering the lack of IJN escorts and the poor ASW skills, what would be the best compromise ratio Transport/Escorts for an average TF sent near the front lines areas to reduce possible losses?

TIA
Gilbert

Gilbert, I've been pondering that. I think it depends on the port and how much stuff needs to be picked up. I want to try to have enough ships available to pick up a full load in 1-2 days max. That means to me that I want a number of small cargo ships. Then I'll add escorts to the max allowable tonnage. If there aren't enough escorts (and I'm not yet sure what "enough" means) then we can always have an ASW TF follow the cargo TF. I'm hoping to start to figure this delimma out later today.

Thanks Mike. i will look forward to your position. I think anyway a transport TF must have an escort, even if it is small to screen the transports and avoid therefore a possible disaster from an ennemy surface TF. In other words, sending a Transport TF without a single escort will be just a waste of ressources and Japan just cannot afford that for long.
Just my two (euro)cents [:)]
Gilbert

[tigercub]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

How to move troops and supply as Japanese?

Large troop elements. If transporting, then move from large port to large port or prepare to wait a long time for loading and unloading. Else use amphibous TF, these load and unload faster when not docked.

Best to carefully plan out troop loading and use multiple ports to load larger forces. I don't work it out by points, but I have a vague idea what is possible based on playing the game. But when I want to load a lot of units quickly I try to spread out and use more than one port.

Actually, all the above applies to both sides equally. Also both sides have some fast transports - make sure you exploit their speed.

For instance, in our 2x2 game with Nik and I as Japan (and Rob and Tony as Allies) Nik wanted me to send some engineers and aviation troops to him. I was loading in Formosa, but I was using the Western ports for my Luzon invasion so I sent these troops for Nik to the NE port. And I would be in a hurry, so I pruned the fastest AP and escorts and sent them there as well. I used Amphibious mode to avoid port issues on both ends. Once the transports were loaded and at sea, I cranked up the speed so they could arrive more quickly. In the event, these troops were able to unload at Davao, the turn after Nik captured it, thus giving him extra capability when needed. So in this case I both spread out my loading and used fast transports to carry critical troops to a distant port quickly.

I feel i am on top of most things in AE but you guys (mike&Wilko) keep bringing new things to the table all the time.[&o]

Tiger!