Question on PH Attack in PBEM

[Q-Ball]

OK, I had a decent opening attack, 3 BBs sunk......hanging around and pounding the Allies some more looks like a pretty low-risk proposition, should only cost me a handful of pilots based on tests and what I have seen.

The question is: SHOULD I do that? Is that pushing the limits of what's possible IRL, and a bit gamey, or not?


As a side note, PH and Force Z aside, I consistently get poor results in the initial attacks in the PI; it doesn't cripple USAFFEE air like RL.

[Chickenboy]

Q-ball,
 
From what others have said re: fuel and ammunition stores, the truth probably lies in the middle somewhere.  It seems as though KB may have had enough fuel and ammo. to stick around another day and attack.  Beyond that, it becomes (pounding on Pearl for a week) gamey in my opinion-but I'd leave that up to my PBEM opponent.
 
If I 'gave' this to my PBEM opponent, I would not expect to hear any guff about doing something marginally gamey myself when the need arose.  Quid pro quo and all that.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Q-ball,

From what others have said re: fuel and ammunition stores, the truth probably lies in the middle somewhere.  It seems as though KB may have had enough fuel and ammo. to stick around another day and attack.  Beyond that, it becomes (pounding on Pearl for a week) gamey in my opinion-but I'd leave that up to my PBEM opponent.

If I 'gave' this to my PBEM opponent, I would not expect to hear any guff about doing something marginally gamey myself when the need arose.  Quid pro quo and all that.

How would you feel if the Lexington and Enterprise sank your tankers while you were hitting Pearl Harbor? And then used gunships to attack you at night? And next used the Enterprise and Lexington to hit you over and over as your now sortie-less carriers creep back to Japan. And you finally see the KB sink as your fuelless ships rapidly accumulate damage at the end...

[xj900uk]

You can play this 'what if' scenario I believe on AE...  'what if' Nagumo hadn't cancelled the planned 3rd strike on 7th December 1941 & the Japs had returned to PH to hit the inshore installations,  repair yards and oil stores (as they had originally planned and trained to do).
But instead the intelligent but over-cautious Nagumo,  unsure where the US carriers were and aware that this was going to be a long drawn-out compaign, explained to his fellow officers that they had already won a great victory (few at PH would disagree with him), they had dared and proved lucky up until now, the US fleet was crippled and it was his duty to His Majesty to return to Kido Butai intact to Japan, as it would be of great importance to Japan in the months and years ahead.
For what it's worth,  Yamamoto and Genga (the architect behind the plan) both privately disagreed with Nagumo but decided not to criticise him publically as it would not be good for his honour nor the fleet's morale, furthermore he was 'on the spot' and they weren't so they accepted his judgement, even though they werren't happy with it.

[sval062]

ORIGINAL: herwin

How would you feel if the Lexington and Enterprise sank your tankers while you were hitting Pearl Harbor? And then used gunships to attack you at night? And next used the Enterprise and Lexington to hit you over and over as your now sortie-less carriers creep back to Japan. And you finally see the KB sink as your fuelless ships rapidly accumulate damage at the end...

You don't need to refuel if you head to Truk and stay just 1 more day at PH.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Q-ball,

From what others have said re: fuel and ammunition stores, the truth probably lies in the middle somewhere.  It seems as though KB may have had enough fuel and ammo. to stick around another day and attack.  Beyond that, it becomes (pounding on Pearl for a week) gamey in my opinion-but I'd leave that up to my PBEM opponent.

If I 'gave' this to my PBEM opponent, I would not expect to hear any guff about doing something marginally gamey myself when the need arose.  Quid pro quo and all that.

How would you feel if the Lexington and Enterprise sank your tankers while you were hitting Pearl Harbor? And then used gunships to attack you at night? And next used the Enterprise and Lexington to hit you over and over as your now sortie-less carriers creep back to Japan. And you finally see the KB sink as your fuelless ships rapidly accumulate damage at the end...

Herwin, that would be fair game, as far as I'm concerned. IJN players that pound PH with KB get whatever they have coming to them by not 'minding the shop' elsewhere. As an allied player, I'd trade that scenario you've described there in a heartbeat (PH pummeled mercilessly for a week, but KB and fleet support oilers being sunk on the way home). It's up to the IJN player to ensure that doesn't happen.

[Shark7]

Balance the risk versus reward. IMO unless you go on a successfull CV hunt, it ain't worth the risk. And the chances that an allied player will actually use his carriers to challenge KB...very low.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: xj900uk
But instead the intelligent but over-cautious Nagumo,  unsure where the US carriers were and aware that this was going to be a long drawn-out compaign, explained to his fellow officers that they had already won a great victory (few at PH would disagree with him), they had dared and proved lucky up until now, the US fleet was crippled and it was his duty to His Majesty to return to Kido Butai intact to Japan, as it would be of great importance to Japan in the months and years ahead.

And of course, ironically similar caution would have served Nagumo and his Emperor well 6 months later.....

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

definitely the right move to pound Pearl Harbor again. Allied players won't throw their CV's up against hoping you have low ammo or sorties left. You could always have half your Zeroes rest and still plaster PH again... Nagumo made the mistake you don't have to

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: herwin
How would you feel if the Lexington and Enterprise sank your tankers while you were hitting Pearl Harbor? And then used gunships to attack you at night? And next used the Enterprise and Lexington to hit you over and over as your now sortie-less carriers creep back to Japan. And you finally see the KB sink as your fuelless ships rapidly accumulate damage at the end...

Problem in a nutshell is that KB doesn't need to re-fuel from those oilers at all in the game...., it starts the 7th "topped off" and easily able to sail all the way back to Japan or even China. So the Oilers can "bug out" on turn one in any direction, making them pretty difficult to target. Maybe if KB started with half a load of fuel and NEEDED to meet it's support TF...

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: herwin
How would you feel if the Lexington and Enterprise sank your tankers while you were hitting Pearl Harbor? And then used gunships to attack you at night? And next used the Enterprise and Lexington to hit you over and over as your now sortie-less carriers creep back to Japan. And you finally see the KB sink as your fuelless ships rapidly accumulate damage at the end...

Problem in a nutshell is that KB doesn't need to re-fuel from those oilers at all in the game...., it starts the 7th "topped off" and easily able to sail all the way back to Japan or even China. So the Oilers can "bug out" on turn one in any direction, making them pretty difficult to target. Maybe if KB started with half a load of fuel and NEEDED to meet it's support TF...

Only problem with that is that if the Allied player "knows" this, they can suicide it for the AOs, knowing that will leave KB high and dry. This is because they "know" the position of the AO's Dec 8th.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Problem in a nutshell is that KB doesn't need to re-fuel from those oilers at all in the game...., it starts the 7th "topped off" and easily able to sail all the way back to Japan or even China. So the Oilers can "bug out" on turn one in any direction, making them pretty difficult to target. Maybe if KB started with half a load of fuel and NEEDED to meet it's support TF...

Only problem with that is that if the Allied player "knows" this, they can suicide it for the AOs, knowing that will leave KB high and dry. This is because they "know" the position of the AO's Dec 8th.

No..., it won't. Because KB can return to meet it's oilers (as it did historically) and cream the two US TF's. Which would be an elegant solution to missing them at PH.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Problem in a nutshell is that KB doesn't need to re-fuel from those oilers at all in the game...., it starts the 7th "topped off" and easily able to sail all the way back to Japan or even China. So the Oilers can "bug out" on turn one in any direction, making them pretty difficult to target. Maybe if KB started with half a load of fuel and NEEDED to meet it's support TF...

Only problem with that is that if the Allied player "knows" this, they can suicide it for the AOs, knowing that will leave KB high and dry. This is because they "know" the position of the AO's Dec 8th.

No..., it won't. Because KB can return to meet it's oilers (as it did historically) and cream the two US TF's. Which would be an elegant solution to missing them at PH.

The Enterprise--at least--can make it to the oilers while the KM is 3-4 hexes off Hawaii. Halsey was looking for the Japanese.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: herwin


The Enterprise--at least--can make it to the oilers while the KM is 3-4 hexes off Hawaii. Halsey was looking for the Japanese.

Only if the KB stays at PH for one more day. If it heads back, E has problems.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: herwin


The Enterprise--at least--can make it to the oilers while the KM is 3-4 hexes off Hawaii. Halsey was looking for the Japanese.

Only if the KB stays at PH for one more day. If it heads back, E has problems.

Cat and mouse game. Halsey would have had Nagumo's gonies.

[witpqs]

You mean IRL? Surely you jest!

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You mean IRL? Surely you jest!

Halsey thought a lot faster than Nagumo. Think Boyd Cycle...

[witpqs]

You can't ONLY think your enemies to the bottom of the sea. IRL Nagumo turned around and headed back toward his refueling point after recovering the second attack.

Just when and how could Halsey translate his thoughts into actions?

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You can't ONLY think your enemies to the bottom of the sea. IRL Nagumo turned around and headed back toward his refueling point after recovering the second attack.

Just when and how could Halsey translate his thoughts into actions?

We're talking about what-ifs. Suppose Nagumo was spotted or his tankers were spotted during that first day. Or Nagumo hung around another day.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Only if the KB stays at PH for one more day. If it heads back, E has problems.

Cat and mouse game. Halsey would have had Nagumo's gonies.

One against six? I think you've been smokin' dem funny cigarettes again perfessor... [:D]