Japanese Bombers

[PresterJohn001]

Hi,

Is there any reason to keep making Lily's at the start of the game or should i change em to Sally's which look better (more bombs) unless
i'm missing something, which is quite possible?

I've stopped all the single engined light bomber production , couldn't see any point in making more of them.. comments?

Also is there any consensus on the Nell or Betty choice. Personally i'm doing about 50/50 with these.

Its great as Japan so much to do !!

[Q-Ball]

PresterJohn, I'm no expert, maybe Historiker or Mike Solli or Mynok or one of the other JFB's studying production will chime in, but in general:

*1-engine IJA bombers are pretty useless; Ann, Mary, Sonia. Don't build any. Idas are even worse; about all you can say is that it does fly, and it does carry 4 bombs (30kg firecrackers though).

*Some people like Lilly because it carries more bombs, albeit smaller bombs than Sally. I personally prefer the Sally, and will standardize on that. I plan to expand Sally, and turn Lilly off.

*The G3M3 has a radar. Not sure what that means, but that can't be a bad thing. It's probably close otherwise.

[Historiker]

1engined bombers:
They aren't useless! You just have to find a proper use for them! As they just have one engine, they only cost half of the 2e bomber. Hence loosing them isn't that grave. Their smaller bombload can consequently also be viewed differently. They usually are also easier to maintain and can fly from smaller airfields. They also need less supplies for flying missions.
Consequently, their primary missions are on map training by the training function (ops losses hurt less) and secondary bomb roles. For instance bombing chinese guerilla units behind the front, you want to use your first line bombers elsewhere. They may also be usefull for "test bombing", e.g. to find out how much CAP leaps to the intended target or how heavy the AA fire is. There's no need to risk more expensive bombers for this mission.

Lilly:
At least in witp - not tested here, yet - more bombs were better than fewer but bigger to close down airfields. They also have a higher chance to hit, so they can be more effective against target without armour. Last but not least you always have to consider the engine production and manually factory changes. If the bomber inteded to be built instead needs a more critical engine, a weaker bomber can be better. Also: changing the production means damaged engine factories and aircraft factories. They have to be repaired at horrible costs. You'll have at least as good things to spend supply for, e.g. for expanding some HI factories on Formosa or so.

Nell:
The nell will have radar somewhen. She doesn#t have it from the start. But as the Nell isn't that inferior to the Betty, I'll keep producing it until I can afford to change the production to a better plane. Her radar will be usefull for ASW duty, but there are plenty of other planes that are cheaper and can carry radar as well. At least, the radar won't make Nells in pool useless when you don't use them in frontline service any more.

[TheTomDude]

The reason why I keep the Lilys is because they use different engines than Sallys. Later I usually upgrade some Lilys to Helens.

[Mike Solli]

A lot of what you build depends on whether you have PDU on or off.  I'm starting a PBEM with PDU off, so I'm going to need them.  There often isn't any other choice.  With PDU on, it's all based on what you like.
 
I agree that the IJA 1E bombers are pretty much useless.  I don't produce any (with PDU on) but I don't ignore them either.  Early on you have to use them until you build up your pools with the planes you want.  They do make great trainers.  Why use a front line air frame for training when you can use the obsolete stuff?  It gives your riff raff pilots something to look forward to.  Well, at least those that survive your training program. [:D]

[Mike Solli]

One other thing to keep in mind.  The more changes you make to your aircraft factories (which results in more changes to your engine factories), the more supply consumed.  There's plenty of other things to spend your supply on. [:D]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

1engined bombers:
They aren't useless! You just have to find a proper use for them! As they just have one engine, they only cost half of the 2e bomber. Hence loosing them isn't that grave. Their smaller bombload can consequently also be viewed differently. They usually are also easier to maintain and can fly from smaller airfields.
Consequently, their primary missions are on map training by the training function (ops losses hurt less) and secondary bomb roles. For instance bombing chinese guerilla units behind the front, you want to use your first line bombers elsewhere. They may also be usefull for "test bombing", e.g. to find out how much CAP leaps to the intended target or how heavy the AA fire is. There's no need to risk more expensive bombers for this mission.

I personally find that the 1e Light bombers are of particular use in China bombing ground formations and in the SRA where range is not a limiting factor. They also make good ASW units in rear guard areas flying from small airfields near the shipping lanes. At least this is how I use them. That said, I do not use or produce Sonia (personal dislike), I just utilize the large pools of Mary and Ann, and I do use the Ida as test fodder.

Lilly:
At least in witp - not tested here, yet - more bombs were better than fewer but bigger to close down airfields. They also have a higher chance to hit, so they can be more effective against target without armour. Last but not least you always have to consider the engine production and manually factory changes. If the bomber inteded to be built instead needs a more critical engine, a weaker bomber can be better. Also: changing the production means damaged engine factories and aircraft factories. They have to be repaired at horrible costs. You'll have at least as good things to spend supply for, e.g. for expanding some HI factories on Formosa or so.

Again, the Lilly has some late war uses as well. ASW...the increased bombload (at least in Vanilla) increased the chances of hitting a submarine if attacked. And again, they are very good at attacking land units. I would actualyl consider replacing Sonia groups with Lilly as the Lilly becomes available in numbers.

Nell:
The nell will have radar somewhen. She doesn#t have it from the start. But as the Nell isn't that inferior to the Betty, I'll keep producing it until I can afford to change the production to a better plane. Her radar will be usefull for ASW duty, but there are plenty of other planes that are cheaper and can carry radar as well. At least, the radar won't make Nells in pool useless when you don't use them in frontline service any more.

Nell and Betty are basically twins. The radar on the later model makes Nell worth keeping around.

[PresterJohn001]

thanks for the replies, i may keep the Lily factory in operation for a while whilst my Sally factory builds up and then look again at it.

Single engined bomber factories have gone to fighter or Sally production.

Being pretty new here no WITP experience, how does on map training work? It is just placing units in a rear area in training missions, for
example after they have lots of losses so need new pilots? What about restricted units - they can be withdrawn so presumably their pilots
go into the pool but you can't then allocate those trained pilots to frontline units?

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

1engined bombers:
They aren't useless! You just have to find a proper use for them! As they just have one engine, they only cost half of the 2e bomber. Hence loosing them isn't that grave. Their smaller bombload can consequently also be viewed differently. They usually are also easier to maintain and can fly from smaller airfields. They also need less supplies for flying missions.
Consequently, their primary missions are on map training by the training function (ops losses hurt less) and secondary bomb roles. For instance bombing chinese guerilla units behind the front, you want to use your first line bombers elsewhere. They may also be usefull for "test bombing", e.g. to find out how much CAP leaps to the intended target or how heavy the AA fire is. There's no need to risk more expensive bombers for this mission.

Lilly:
At least in witp - not tested here, yet - more bombs were better than fewer but bigger to close down airfields. They also have a higher chance to hit, so they can be more effective against target without armour. Last but not least you always have to consider the engine production and manually factory changes. If the bomber inteded to be built instead needs a more critical engine, a weaker bomber can be better. Also: changing the production means damaged engine factories and aircraft factories. They have to be repaired at horrible costs. You'll have at least as good things to spend supply for, e.g. for expanding some HI factories on Formosa or so.

Nell:
The nell will have radar somewhen. She doesn#t have it from the start. But as the Nell isn't that inferior to the Betty, I'll keep producing it until I can afford to change the production to a better plane. Her radar will be usefull for ASW duty, but there are plenty of other planes that are cheaper and can carry radar as well. At least, the radar won't make Nells in pool useless when you don't use them in frontline service any more.

HISTORY

More, smaller bombs and shells is what you need for soft targets,

[Streptokok]

As Jap player vs AI i found that AIs CAP usualy doesnt bother with Lilys, bbqes Nells/Betties...

EDIT:

Nells got wasted so I grounded them. Lilys:

Morning Air attack on Georgetown , at 49,74

Weather in hex: Moderate rain


Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 58



No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
xAP Kelantan, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Hong Siang, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Wing Sang, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Nam Yong, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Ellenga, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Demosthenes, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
HDML Pennigat, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
HDML Panji, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk



Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x Ki-48-Ib Lily bombing from 10000 feet *
Port Attack: 2 x 100 kg GP Bomb
31 x Ki-48-Ib Lily bombing from 10000 feet *
Port Attack: 2 x 100 kg GP Bomb

[Caliban]

Remember: You are going to need airframes and engines to fill out new groups as they appear as reinforcements. After they appear you can then upgrade these groups to a more desired aircraft.

[Mike Solli]

Caliban is correct.  Note one difference from WitP though.  You don't need enough planes to fill out the entire unit.  Since the pilots come from the pool, you don't "lose" pilots if you don't have enough airframes to fill out the unit.

[rattovolante]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Caliban is correct.  Note one difference from WitP though.  You don't need enough planes to fill out the entire unit.  Since the pilots come from the pool, you don't "lose" pilots if you don't have enough airframes to fill out the unit.

does this mean that late war I'll have to revert factories to build obsolete training/kamikaze planes AND their obsolete engines? I thought these planes came "for free" from the (until then not-on-map) training units

[Mike Solli]

The "training" units that come in late game are supposed to be used as kamikazes.  They come with planes.  They do not draw from the pool.

[tigercub]

Lily changes from level bomber to dive bomber in early 43 so i keep her on for a little bit.


Tiger!

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: tigercub

Lily changes from level bomber to dive bomber in early 43 so i keep her on for a little bit.


Tiger!

Yes, but its a bad dive bomber. Its range is bigger than the other DBs but it only carrys 2x100kg. A Betty is way more powerful.
Yes, it has armour, but I'll have to see how much difference the armour means. It doesn't help that much if the plane survives while the hits are without significant effect.

[Mynok]

It will be interesting to see if Lily's are as good at ASW in AE as they were in Witp, especially if they turn into dive bombers.

[seydlitz_slith]

Lilly is also faster than Sally, Nell, and Betty. Faster = more survivable in combat.
Early in the war it is fast enough that some of the allied fighters have trouble catching it after the initial pass.

[DaveP]

Re: Sonia

Does anyone have a feel for the effectiveness of the Camera "Tac Recon" ability of the Sonia? Is she worth keeping around for this reason, especially in China?