WW2:TOW vs Cdr EaW

[Akmatov]

I've just been bitten by the 'how about conquering Europe this month bug' and am excited to find I actually have a choice between two games that both look pretty good. I'd like to ask a couple of questions to help my selection:

1) I notice that Commanders in the demo are attached to specific Divisions or Corps. Do they have a radius of influence or do they only affect the unit to which they are attached?

2) I'm very pleased to see that the game can extend beyond 1945. However, I'm wondering if there is any way to convert to a Western Allies vs. Soviet Union war? This has always fascinated me and it would be very interesting if it was possible. I'd even be willing to get into modding a save game to enable such a scenario.

3) I assume that the R&D in a post-1945 game continues?

4) Another of my fantasy scenarios would be for the US to not enter the European war, as could have happened. Is this a possibility in the vanilla game or could it be 'modded'?

5) The blub mentions 'strategic bombing', could someone please touch on that a bit?

I'll be exploring the demo tonight, but the above might not be clear from the demo. Thanks for any info.

[gwgardner]

First, the demo won't reflect the latest patch 1.6 completely, although pretty close.

Tons of stuff is moddable. Most everything is in text-based data files. The dev team is great about providing help with that, if it hasn't already been covered in depth in the modding forum/threads. Doomtrader has done some formal explanations of modding.

You can extend beyond the surrender of Germany, to an Allies vs Comintern war. I don't know about research, etc., after the game's default end date.

Three types of air units, fighters, tac bombers, strat bombers. The latter can be used to strike cities and resource hexes. The effectiveness of strat bombers is based upon tech level. Tech level 1 you won't get much damage per strike, but damage doesn't get repaired immediately, so it can be very useful. It's expensive, however. In '39 the Brits start off with one strat bomber fleet.

Since everything is moddable, you can get the US in on the European war early. In fact, I just played a game in which, by event, Pearl Harbor occured in June '41 and the US immediately joined the Allies. If not by event, then you would have to use the Diplomacy system to get the US in, I guess.

Commanders effect units beyond the one they're attached to. I believe the closest commander to a given hex is the one that is used. If two or more commanders are equally close, I don't know which is used.

[Michael the Pole]

Research continues to the end of the game, but is not open ended. (No F-102s or MiG25s)
I'd be very interested in seeing a "Patton's War" scenario following the fall of Germany. I am also hoping that were going to see a "1938" scenario from the modders (I'd be glad to help on this project since I now know everything that can possibly be known about that subject following my summer reading project.)
This game is modders heaven esentially, darn near everyhing can be modded.

[Akmatov]

Thanks for the fast reply.  I've been trolling the forum and there is a lot to like here.

- I very much like the modability of the game, and it seems the developers have made easy modability a priority, which is a huge plus for me as I am a historian not a programmer.  I'm especially impressed that Doom has provided modding information and assistance.

- I'm excited that an Allies vs Comintern War is built in as a possibility - did I understand that right?

- Wonder if one could mod a save game to ally the Germans with the Allies vs the Comintern a 'la Fox on the Rhine and some of the Nazi's more wishful fantasies.  Would make for a wildly different scenario.

- The info on strategic bombing is exactly what I was wondering about.  Paradox in HOI is a bit too PC in not allowing 'terror bombing'.  Strategic bombing was a huge part of the war and sucked up enormous resourses.  Good to see we get the same options as the real commanders.

- Actually, I was wanting to play with the US going to war with Japan only, as could have happened.  I have had several converstations with people about the wisdom of the US involvement, which has lead me to wonder how things would have worked out had the US stayed out of Europe.  Having just discovered the Mystery of the F11 Key, that would seem a possible way to simulate continued Lend Lease but not war.

Thanks for all the info, this game is looking better and better.

[gwgardner]

Allied - Comintern war is not a built-in scenario or even a designed progression, it's just possible, at any time really. Especially by modding. Example, give the USSR more diplomatic points, I guess, and fiddle with the political 'leanings' of the various powers.

The US does have the option by event not to enter the war, and to concentrate solely on the Pacific. Of course, all events aren't always seen in a given game. ( I think.)

[Akmatov]

Ah, but if something has been written up as an event, I'd expect it would be easy to convert it into a 100% occuring event.  Looks like that would be a lot easier than I had expected. [:)]

Michael the Pole - a 1938 scenario would be very interesting - everyone would be caught unprepared, I think.

BTB, continuing to troll, this is a very well 'finished' game. It is a little thing, but something I noticed in the demo last night.  I can set the time for the results box up to like 20 seconds, much too long, and then click on the box when I finish reading it.  So simple, but so so convenient and well-thought out.

And it is scary to realize there is a bigger, badder game lurking in the background waiting to pounce, Bitter Glory.  Am I correct to assume that BG is also a WW2 Europe strategy fest?

[gwgardner]

I believe Bitter Glory would be better compared to HOI3, as in world-wide, with hexes. Don't know if it's turn-based or real-time, however.

[Tomokatu]

a 1938 scenario would be very interesting - everyone would be caught unprepared, I think

 
As would a 1936 French armed resistance to the Re-militarisation of the Rhineland.
I know that politically it was a non-starter because the British had refused support - even moral and diplomatic but perhaps ................

[Akmatov]

Oh, Bother - I just bought it!  Installing now.  Thx for all the info guys

[Bleck]

Don't forget to download and install patch 1.60

Thanks for buying, hope you will enjoy it, if not - please share your reflections with us anyway

[Anraz]

And it is scary to realize there is a bigger, badder game lurking in the background waiting to pounce, Bitter Glory.  Am I correct to assume that BG is also a WW2 Europe strategy fest?

I believe Bitter Glory would be better compared to HOI3, as in world-wide, with hexes. Don't know if it's turn-based or real-time, however.

Considering game scale Gary is right. Bitter Glory is an ultimate ww2 simulator. A one in real time, but also meant to lure TBS gamers who love hexes (some people say “hex” and “real time” sounds like an oxymoron ).

[Tomokatu]

some people say “hex” and “real time” sounds like an oxymoron

Probably more like a paradox, but let's not talk about OTHER companies.[;)]

[Akmatov]

Thanks for buying, hope you will enjoy it, if not - please share your reflections with us anyway

That is a rather interesting comment.  I think it reflects what I'm beginning to suspect is a far better attitude from developers toward 'consumers' than is often the case.  You guys also seem to respond to the 'communities' input!

As I dive into TOW, I may make a few suggestions, intended as constructive and largely selfish in motivation.  You guys seem interested in supporting your developing fan base and I'm all in favor of that. [:)]

I did some looking at what is available on BG.  OMG but that looks VERY interesting!  The idea of guiding a countries R&D toward the deployment of personally designed weapons systems is both overwhelming and fascinating.  HOI has something similar, but not quite.  Really looking forward to BG's release!

And just for your information, here are some of the reasons for my selecting TOW over CEAW and GG WAW, in no particular order:
* GG WAW's strongest attraction was it's built in post-1945 possibilities.  Otherwise, I'm not interested.  It was suggested that TOW could be tweaked (I'll be asking how later) to accomodate an Allied vs Comintern post-1945 continuation conflict - so my interest seem possable in a format I much prefer.
* The Demo was VERY helpful!  It is unreasonable to expect the advertising copy to answer all of everyone's questions and having a demo to poke at for a few hours was a huge help.  Several things that I learned from the demo were the very nice windowing & resolution options, the very nice counter options (I generally HATE sprites and really like the decision to give the individual gamer control over unit presentation-actually to my surprise I seem to have settled on the 'mix' option as sprites for naval and air units sets them apart nicely and the air sprites are especially informative regarding what type of air unit they are), the highly informative unit counter data and the generally 'well finished' presentation of the entire program.  The giving of options to the player in terms of counters and maps and modability is much appreciated.
* I have noticed that games that enable modders to improve them stay on my HD.  I am not a modder, but this game may change that.
* The fast and helpful responses to my questions indicated an active and helpful community.  There were 7 responses and 87 views in 24 hours on this forum.  In the CEAW forum in the same period there were 2 views and 0 responses.
* Playing the demo there was an odd sense of the interface being 'well finished'.  I'm not sure how to quantify that, but it is just an easier interface than most.  Little things like you can move around the map using the key board arrows instead of just the curser - which with most games is a pain due to jerking and overshooting. I have just noticed several little things that all work in a way that makes their use easier and more senseable.
* The manual is well done, as opposed to the typed up notes that CEAW calls a manual.
* The leaving in of the devolopment tool F11 key is GREAT.  This allows one to explore how the system works and to facilitate events outside the scope of the game.  For example, if I were to disable US entry into the war, I could still simulate Lend Lease.  This is the kind of flexibility that is very rare in computer games, but normal for board games.
* And I have to say, that the lack of oil having the kind of impact on play that is modeled in CEAW is a bit disappointing.  I'm not sure I wouldn't disable such a feature, especially at first.  But to have to balance the oil cost vs the combat benefit of the use of oil consuming units would be very interesting and historical.

Ah, well enough encouragement for BG to be as well concieved with as much attention to detail.  Back to plotting my conquest of Europe.

UPDATE: 197 views here vs 2 at CEAW

[Magpius]

remember ceaw has been out much longer than tow. and forums do quiet down after a while, (although I suspect this one may not). CEAW is much harder to mod, and there was really only a couple of key patches and 1 major scenario mod so far. After playing TOW, I found going back to CEAW, not as fun. Not being able to combine attacks in CEAW is really noticeable for example, amongst many other attack move issues. I do like CEAW's naval system,subs v convoys etc... but TOW I think will have greater longevity.

[Uxbridge]

if not totally mistaken, CEAW didn't have retreats either, making the fronts something you always had to break down instead of pushing. The same went for SC.

[Sgt.Fury25]

Hey Ux, I didnt notice it before but I think your right about units in sc fighting to their deaths w/o the ability to retreat![X(]This game is very well done and thanks.

[Uxbridge]

Yes, this makes ToW a much more movable game. My only negative critisism on the retreat issue, is that it is basically dependent upon losses.

[H. Hoth]

ORIGINAL: Akmatov

Thanks for the fast reply.  I've been trolling the forum and there is a lot to like here.

- I very much like the modability of the game, and it seems the developers have made easy modability a priority, which is a huge plus for me as I am a historian not a programmer.  I'm especially impressed that Doom has provided modding information and assistance.

- I'm excited that an Allies vs Comintern War is built in as a possibility - did I understand that right?

- Wonder if one could mod a save game to ally the Germans with the Allies vs the Comintern a 'la Fox on the Rhine and some of the Nazi's more wishful fantasies.  Would make for a wildly different scenario.

- The info on strategic bombing is exactly what I was wondering about.  Paradox in HOI is a bit too PC in not allowing 'terror bombing'.  Strategic bombing was a huge part of the war and sucked up enormous resourses.  Good to see we get the same options as the real commanders.

- Actually, I was wanting to play with the US going to war with Japan only, as could have happened.  I have had several converstations with people about the wisdom of the US involvement, which has lead me to wonder how things would have worked out had the US stayed out of Europe.  Having just discovered the Mystery of the F11 Key, that would seem a possible way to simulate continued Lend Lease but not war.

Thanks for all the info, this game is looking better and better.

Yes it seems to me that you are a troll. You claim to have read many books about this subject. USA declaring war only on Japan was never an option....like WW1 war with Germany was only a mattter of time....I will pick you apart old goat.