Generic withdrawals anyone?

[vlcz]

I think the withdrawal system is too strict on requesting an exact unit to withdraw, specially with air units, to put an example :

June 42 , Allies have to withdraw a RAF buffalo group , they got four of them , one in Calcutta , two at Java , and one [the one who have to be retired] in Darwin..

It comes the withdraw date, and Darwin´s buffalos are the only assest who defends Darwin from Japanese air from DEI….. Wouldn´t be more convenient and realist retreating another buffalo group instead?

A similar treatment could be applied to naval units, if you have to retire an exact RN CV (i.e. Indomitable ) and it is sunk …..then you do not have to withdraw another one instead !! … Seems a bit weird that Admiralty doesn’t care how much CVs are in pacific theatre or how much they need one in Med…

[Terminus]

It's historically correct, and that's all that matters. Case closed.

[vlcz]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's historically correct, and that's all that matters. Case closed.

Yes it is historically EXACT...as the sinking of prince of wales in December 1941 or the exact number or A6M2 builded by japan in the war.....IMHO we play this simulation to make our own decisions...and errors, we can alter japans production BTW, so a medium point between "no withdrawals" (they are logical to cope with out of theater necessities) and stone-written ones could be useful.

[d0mbo]

it won't probably be in AE, but maybe in the future i would like some sort of PP system:
 
You have to retire units which have the value of X PP's, however, which one is up to you, the CO/CinC/Captain/Aviator and supply buff.
 
This would still mean you HAVE to withdraw units, you get the chance to decide which one according to your stategic needs.
 
 

[Historiker]

Its your job to coordinate your airgroups that this withdrawls don't cause serious problems. You see it from the start, its part of your job! If you miss to consider this, its your fault! [:)]

[vlcz]

ORIGINAL: Historiker
Its your job to coordinate your airgroups that this withdrawls don't cause serious problems. You see it from the start, its part of your job! If you miss to consider this, its your fault! [:)]

Yes with a little planification it is avoidable , TOO much avoidable indeed, when you know a unit does not withdraw to the pools (or a naval unit for this purpose)you can bleed them dry...

In fact it is not a "bonus to conceal underplay" but much the contrary, If I lost a named british CV and that CV is needed in Med I would need to send another one, or lost a bunch of X (PP?).

[Oldguard1970]

I am still confused by the mechanics of withdrawals.  I think it works like this:
 
A.  LCU - Don't worry.  They evaporate on schedule.
B.  Ships - Get the named ship to a proper port and press the "withdraw ship" button.  Pay PPs each day you run late.  If the ship is sunk by the withdrawal date, there is no withdrawal required, nor are any PPs lost.
C.  Air - Hit the "withdraw" button before the required date.  Gain PPs for early withdrawal.  Suffer daily PP penalties for failure to withdraw.
 
Air has options that confuse me.  Disband works too, right?  What about that message that says "... and lose aircraft"?  Can I avoid that by being in a better location or by having a sister unit at the same airfield with identical airframes?  ...And what happens if the air unit is destroyed prior to the withdrawal date?

[jwilkerson]

If withdrawals bugs you too much - we added a toggle to turn it off!!! [:)]

[Oldguard1970]

Hi Joe,
 
True, and that was a good idea.  However, I choose to play with the withdrawals.  I just need to figure it out.... along with a couple hundred other things. [;)]
 
 
 

[vlcz]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

If withdrawals bugs you too much - we added a toggle to turn it off!!! [:)]

never! [X(] As said I feel then add realism, one must not forget there are another parallel war in the med/atlantic. My only concern is that [a big IMHO here] the system seems a little inflexible and open to "gamey" abuses.

[d0mbo]

Exactly my idea. i am a bit wondered why this system is so strict, given all the other aspects that are fully flexible.

I still stand by the idea that the needs of other fronts ("germany first") needs eiter to be abstracted a bit or that the player gets to pick what unit he sends.
(E.g. a scheme that says a squadron with at least x experience and x planes needs to be withdrawn by date x to fight in England, train others in U.S. etcetera.)

The argument that the withdraw date is HISTORY and thus needs to be in, is flawed, as by that same line, you need to include historic sunk-dates as well. (Your precious japanese carriers will magically disappear by 4 to 7 juni 1942!)

Again: the great potential for this game is to fight the war with the same resources that existed back then, but to give it your own twist. The fixed unit/date wiothdrawal is the one thing that doesnt fit in this logic.

Just my 0.02$

[USSAmerica]

"planification"  My new word of the day.  [:D]
 
Thanks, vlcz.  [:)]

[vlcz]

ORIGINAL: USS America

"planification"  My new word of the day.  [:D]

Thanks, vlcz.  [:)]

Allways a pleasure being usefull for you [;)]

As you sure realise, Im less proficient with your language that I would like...[:(] .. I hope my writings are legible (althought they sound funny! [:'(])

[Mynok]

They are both legible and intelligible. [:'(]

[loricas]

air unit: the disband work also and there is no penality for no withdrawal they disappear as LCU.
but withdrawal before time where is possible, is a choice: you can keep PP or answer no the first time and keep aircraft and pilot in pool: i think is intended to give player the possibility to obtain replacent of a specific aircraft usually not in production at this time..., at the cost of extra PP not gained. for exemple buffalo for the first 4 month. where is only possible disband i think is intended to not give to player advanced aircraft too early (for what i see are only group in West coast: send to europe?) and here only for historical reasons

[timtom]

Two things to bear in mind when considering air units:

1) The air OOB is highly devolved. The basic unit is that of the squadron-level or equalant, ie the battalion level. By comparison the basic building block of the ground OOB is the division, two echelons higher. Unlike the ground OOB, the air OOB is - and was - highly unstable which in part is a function of it's devolved nature as it was comparatively more easy to reorder a force composed of individually small components. For reasons of their own, the naval services incl. the USMC were extra keen on reorganising their forces. IMO modelling these factors correctly is important because force-levels matters, both in pure game terms and in terms of accurately portraying the past.

2) That said, the air OOB is highly abstract. Air units are portrayed as a handful of aircraft and pilots when in reality they were essentially, in terms of organisation and administration, ground units several hundred men strong which just happened to have aircraft on their TO&E. Air units in the game are near indestructable, which is accurate in so far as the complete loss of the the air echelon would not compromise the integrity of the unit as such. However sets air units apart from other types of units in the game in a fundamental way. The game already has a seemless way of removing naval- and ground units, however the same isn't true of air units.

These two considerations have lead to the somewhat draconic withdrawal requirements for a comparatively large number of units. We did consider a more flexible system of general requirements, but thought that players would invariably withdraw the least desirable units and render the USN/USMC system of unit replacement meaningless. The current system is also the path of least resistance (believe it or not) in terms of coding and modability.

[goodboyladdie]

I like the fact that everything is worked out to make sure I only have what I am meant to have in theatre. My only wish is that the withdraw and disband buttons produced the same result each time. Sometimes you lose planes and pilots, others you get to redistribute resources and sometimes you get extra PPs. I know over an entire war it all doesn't mean much, but when you are scratching round for airframes in early 1942 it's all a bit of a worry...

[cantona2]

I think the PP fine system is good enough.

[akdreemer]

I too would like to see come form of generic withdrawals and/or a one time PP fine, sans WITP. The excuse because coding was easier in AE does not cut the mustard, since the coding already existed in the original WITP. An acceptable alternative, at least for naval withdrawal, would be any friendly port of X size (maybe >7). And for ships that spent very little time. like the Queens, maybe not include at all.

[Dixie]

It works fine as is IMO.  The idea of generic withdrawls is a good one, but for one fact.  Take the RN for example, should PoW survive past the Malaya campaign she would be a prime candidate for reassignment to the Med/Atlantic.  But how many players would actually send their best units out of theatre?
The RAF/Commonwealth squadrons aren't operated in the same manner as the US basis, a squadron is just a number in essence.  The withdrawl requirement isn't AHQ demanding that fighter squadron X is withdrawn, squadrons were disbanded and reformed fairly regularly.  The personnel generally would have stayed in theatre and been reassigned rather than shipping back to the UK.