1938 Scenario?

[Leeds]

Would love to see a 'What If' 1938 Scenario.......anyone working it?

[Michael the Pole]

I can supp[y political and diplomatic info. I cant imagine where we could get oob data, though. Maybe Sevarian has some ideas.
I'd be glad to get involved in this project!

[axisandallies]

Yes this would be good.  So much could have changed on a dime in 1938, The one I like the most is the French-Polish joint attack on Germany, that it was talked about, anyway I think it was 1938 but it could have been 1937.

[Michael the Pole]

1938, prior to Sudeten crisis

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

1938, prior to Sudeten crisis

Yes now I remember, thanks. Was it Poland who wanted this or France?

[Tomokatu]

I conjecture that it was probably the Poles, because from my readings about the possibility of French armed resistance to the 1936 re-militarisation of the Rhineland, France had little political will for another bout and rather less capability.
I can get more specific if needed, but that's a summary.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

I conjecture that it was probably the Poles, because from my readings about the possibility of French armed resistance to the 1936 re-militarisation of the Rhineland, France had little political will for another bout and rather less capability.
I can get more specific if needed, but that's a summary.

I think you are right, I don't think they had the will to fight in 1938 or even 1939.

[Tomokatu]

I don't think they were all that willing in 1940 or '41 either.
I hasten to point out that I'm referring to the dishevelled French governments, not the people. Les Chantiers de la Jeunesse and similar bodies were quite willing but needed extra leadership and resources.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

I don't think they were all that willing in 1940 or '41 either.
I hasten to point out that I'm referring to the dishevelled French governments, not the people. Les Chantiers de la Jeunesse and similar bodies were quite willing but needed extra leadership and resources.

yes, I agree. What if the French would have fought on, I think they would have a good base in North Africa.

[Michael the Pole]

Quite right, Tom. I suggest Richaed Watt's Bitter Glory: Poland & Its Fate 1918-1939 which is an extraordinary history of Poland and Central Europe generally.
Essentially, the whole situation is yet another example of a nation acting against it's larger self interest because of what it sees as its short term best interest (my favorite is the example of Imperial Germany building a totaly useless High Seas Fleet which made an implacable enemy of England.) In this case, in 1919 the Czechs grabbed Teschen Silesia, a small area with a large Polish majority, and convinced the Allies that they had the best claim to the area. Plebiscites were promised, but were never held, and Poland deeply resented the situation, to the extent that Polish-Czech relations were deeply poisoned for the remainder of the inter-War period. (There were other causes of friction, including the refusal of the Czechs to allow Allied supply to pass it's borders to assist Poland in the Polish-Soviet war.) The result -- Czechoslovakia gained a small area that was inherently unfriendly and made Poland a lasting enemy. When Germany turned its sights on the Czechs in 1938, the Poles returned the favor to the Czechs.

But in early 1938 Marshal Pilsudski (who had earned a reputation as one of the most capable diplomats in modern European history) finessed the French by offering to invade Germany if the French were prepared to honor their treaty comitments to the Czechs. As someone has said, going to war in reliance on the French is like going hunting with your accordion. The French folded-up like a wet cardboard box, and the last, best chance to stop Hitler was lost.

This is just a thumbnail sketch of what happened in 1938 - as you can imagine, there was a lot of detail that I've skimmed over! But it's also the basis of the importance of a 1938 scenario, and for me why its so interesting. The bottom line is that if the French had any manhood at all, the Poles would have fought.

[SeaMonkey]

How about something more on the lines on WiF's Days of Decision? Starting somewhere around the beginning of 1936 before Germany reoccupies the Rhineland.

You could start with 4 quarterly turns a year in which diplomacy, production, and national policies are sculped. Once the hostilities begin go to a more specific time period for turns, like every two weeks.

Of course your going to get a lot of WW2 atypical scenarios unfolding, like Muzzy Lane's "Making History", but with ToW's superior combat model, it could be very interesting for WW2's "what if" crowd.

[Tomokatu]

Quite right, Tom. I suggest Richaed Watt's Bitter Glory: Poland & Its Fate 1918-1939 which is an extraordinary history of Poland and Central Europe generally

Thank you for that reference Michael. I have bookmarked it for the next excursion.
I confess that my overall knowledge of Middle European history is less than my knowledge of British Imperial matters.
In my defence, I DID know about the 1921 war which beat off the Bolshevik invasion and the 175-odd year history before that as a conquered Russian province, and maybe just a little about the mediaeval political setup which just plain guaranteed chaos, anarchy and eventual conquest by whomever happened to be handy and in the mood.[:-]

But, we can always learn more.[8D]

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey


How about something more on the lines on WiF's Days of Decision? Starting somewhere around the beginning of 1936 before Germany reoccupies the Rhineland.

You could start with 4 quarterly turns a year in which diplomacy, production, and national policies are sculped. Once the hostilities begin go to a more specific time period for turns, like every two weeks.

Of course your going to get a lot of WW2 atypical scenarios unfolding, like Muzzy Lane's "Making History", but with ToW's superior combat model, it could be very interesting for WW2's "what if" crowd.

That can be interesting, especially with a Spanish Civil War event.

[Michael the Pole]

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

Quite right, Tom. I suggest Richaed Watt's Bitter Glory: Poland & Its Fate 1918-1939 which is an extraordinary history of Poland and Central Europe generally

Thank you for that reference Michael. I have bookmarked it for the next excursion.
I confess that my overall knowledge of Middle European history is less than my knowledge of British Imperial matters.
In my defence, I DID know about the 1921 war which beat off the Bolshevik invasion and the 175-odd year history before that as a conquered Russian province, and maybe just a little about the mediaeval political setup which just plain guaranteed chaos, anarchy and eventual conquest by whomever happened to be handy and in the mood.[:-]

But, we can always learn more.[8D]

God's teeth, Tom, even I don't know everything![:D]

[Tomokatu]

God's teeth, Tom, even I don't know everything![:D]

SSssshhhh!!!
Don't EVER admit that aloud![:-]