Japanese AI Stategy

[Mundy]

I'm about 4 months into the 1922 campaign as the Allies vs. the Japanese AI. After having cold feet, I've found WPO pretty manageable, so I’m using it to get used to the geography before trying the full Monty in WITP.

I made the Japanese pay dearly for Clark field. They then pretty much took Bataan by default, since I pulled troops out of there for the front line. Everyone’s in Manila – even the engineers from Iloilo. Since taking Clark the Japs seem to be in a pause. I’ve held them up long enough to get some units in from the states, including the 2nd Marines, an Indian regiment, and about half a dozen aircraft units, including two Martin bomber units. I’m taking a good toll on his transports, but sheer numbers are letting him get more troops ashore. I’m basing the Navy in Hong Kong, but have sub tenders also on Shanghai and Tsingtao. Most of the subs from stateside are in theater, so things are busy. The heavy hitting Jap BBs have for the most part been in parts unknown. One minor clash off of Bataan against real battleships sent the Mississippi to the bottom. Mindanao had been taken pretty early, so the fight is on Luzon with the last stand at Manila.

My Martins, DH-4, and Brisfits are starting to land hits on AP/AKs, gathering experience. I have blimps on naval search, spotting his convoys. My seaplanes are split between reconning Clark and naval search. Morale is increasing. The waters are choked with subs, and I send occasional raids from Hong Kong, but the sheer number of targets is making this tough.

Anyway, the Japanese decided to land troops at Sandakan, on Borneo. My first reaction was “OMG, I need to do something, NOW!” Then, after taking a closer look, I was questioning why it would do such a thing. It’s bare bones, isolated and has no resources or industry to offer. I would imagine that it would take forever for any troops there to move to something important.

Should I treat it as a POW camp for Japanese troops, while keeping it sub infested, or will this become a festering sore? I’ve been gathering Aussies and New Zealanders together in Brisbane and then to Rabaul. My intention is to move on Truk and work on his Eastern holdings. Should I stop everything and go to Borneo?

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[tex]

First, I think you are lucky to have at least a pulse from the AI at this point. In my game the Japanese are camped on the north coast of Luzon and seem to like it there, as they haven´t moved in ages.

About strategy, if I were you I wouldn´t worry much about Borneo, as their ain´t nothing there that can hurt you . The idea of a POW camp is spot on. I would just send plenty of subs around there and hope you can find at least a hint of your main target- the Japanese Fleet. Of course, that is just my opinion, and your mileage may vary.

Good luck, and keep us posted as to what happens next!

[Mundy]

Yeah, on my first run (Before the virus incident), the Japs just camped north of Clark.  The second time they were hell bent for leather all over Clark.  They must have noticed nothing was on Bataan except the forts and they didn't last.  Lots of convoys are going there now.
 
I have the entire Dutch fleet (minus the TBs) incorporated into Battlefleet Hong Kong.  I like to use them to raid transports with my favorite de-mothballed monitor, Monadnock.  The only forces I have in the area are two groups of 4 Dutch torpedo boats at the nearest bases on Borneo.  On the initial invasion they got one torp into a transport, which was cute.
 
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[Connfire]

I remember reading somewhere (I can't remember where, I was hanging around in these forums almost 6 months before I actually decided to buy the game and commit the time to play it) that the Japanese AI has around half a dozen basic strategies to chose from, and then adjusts these according to the move that the human player makes. This seemed to be confirmed when the AI did just that between the 2 Clash of the Titans scenarios I played before also diving into the 1922 campaign.

I can't help but compare your experience to mine. Other than a raid to Singapore (which in my mind was smoothed over by diplomacy), the Japanese AI has concentrated solely on US and Filipino forces. Which is odd, considering Allied and Japanese forces have occupied the same hex in Shanghai for almost an entire game year. Anyway, I'm only using US forces to fight the AI now - we're one more incident away from the UK and/or China joining the war.

I'm now in early April 1923 (I work nights, so I have time). The AI has surprised me in the last few game months. I don't want to ruin your fun by giving too much away, but, like you, I aggressively hunted all shipping heading for the Philippines, where the IJA had big, long sieges underway at Manila, Bataan, and Davao. After sinking many, many unescorted ships, by early 1923 I managed to get enough reinforcements to break the siege at Manila. Other than blitzing the Philippines with convoys containing light or no escorts, the AI really didn't try to do much to stop my strategy up to this point.

Then, after I relieved Manila, the AI unexpectedly responded by concentrating most of his ground forces at Clark Field - and there were a lot more ground units then I realized! While settling in for the long wait for additional reinforcements from the West Coast, I landed diversionary forces at Vigan and Butuan, then started recapturing other northern Luzon ports, trying to cut off the AI's resupply to what amounted to an Army Corps at Clark Field. Suddenly, the AI came to life, and the whole game changed. Convoys had escorts, and more and more of my ships attacking them started getting badly damaged, and in some cases sunk. TFs built around BBs and CAs started raiding the Philippines, leading to some big naval battles, and some heavy naval losses for me. Twice in 1 game week, a force built around 2 brand new IJN BBs slaughtered 2 TFs, composed of 3 CLs and about 10 of my DDs in what I thought was a rear area. I just shook my head - whether by accident or design the AI did what any human player would try to do - hit me with overwhelming forces where I least expect.

All I can tell you is my experience from my one 1922 campaign thus far, that it seems like when you do something major - capture a key base, prevent resupply of a large number of ground forces, etc - the AI may actually come after you. You just need to prod it with a stick every now and then to get its pulse back [:)].

[tex]

This is very good news, especially as I am about to kick the AI out of Luzon. I was thinking about giving the game up, but now I am curious as to what will happen.

Still, this game is definitely better with a human opponent.

[Mundy]

In my case, the Japs are holed up at Clark. According to my air recon, the numbers seem to be dropping, but I'm taking that with a grain of salt.

I'll probably carry on with my intended invasion of Truk using the Aussies/New Zealanders. That might knock a few acorns out of the tree.

Hopefully there's not too much there. There are no real recon resources to be really sure what's there. I sent the two Commonwealth BC with destroyers there and the DDs took a beating. I should have turned them off for the bombardment. All of the US pre-Dreadnaughts with their DD escort just arrived at Rabaul, and I intend to support the Truk move with them. I've been lax getting fuel to Rabaul, so it's dry. Always the details... [:)]

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[Mundy]

Here's an update:
 
I decided to retake Clark.&nbsp; The AI let me get a good buildup, since I used a couple Indian units, the 2nd Marine Brigade, the 1st Cav, a British tank regiment, extra arty, and the re-energized PI units, plus extras.&nbsp; There were indeed < 3,000 troops there, so I walked right over it.&nbsp; Lots of engineers went in also, so that after a day, I was at 26% towards a fortification.&nbsp;
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I dithered a couple days, considering Bataan.&nbsp; Nearly 30,000 troops there.&nbsp; I pulled the trigger and sent the troops in.&nbsp; the Allied and Jap troops seemed to have passed in the night, since I took Bataan from a small holding force while the entire Jap fighting strength took Clark.&nbsp; Fortunately, the engineers and base units made it back to Manila with very light losses.&nbsp; I've turned the big green machine around again to Clark, so I'm hoping I can decide this once and for all.&nbsp; Hopefully, I can use this to retake the northern areas.&nbsp; I guess I can confirm that taking something important lights a fire under the AI's butt.
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A human opponent most likely would have owned Luzon long before now, I think.&nbsp; I probably wouldn't have moved the entire Dutch navy to Hong Kong in that case.&nbsp; The good news is that the Royal Navy is starting to arrive.&nbsp; HMS Argus has been on station near Manila for about a week, getting their airedales some experience.&nbsp; The US Army Air Service (they weren't Air Corps 'til 1926), is getting plenty of hits, but few confirmed sinkings, though the damage has been great.&nbsp; The torpedo bombers are a nice addition.&nbsp; HMS Repulse is on the way to Hong Kong.&nbsp; A 30 kt battlecruiser will come in handy.
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I'm getting lots of wear and tear on my battleships, so I've been rebasing them at Shanghai.&nbsp; The extra shipyard are needed at this point.&nbsp; A massive sub force just arrived there from the states, so most of the US subs are in-theater.&nbsp; I'm keeping some at Pearl to harass Wake.&nbsp; I don't know why the AI took Wake, but left Guam alone.&nbsp; I have sub tenders at Hong Kong, Shanghai and Tsingtao, so everything from the Straits of Tsushima to Borneo will be sub infested.
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Still waiting for fuel in Rabaul before I start Operation Truk.&nbsp; It took forever to get the Oz forces set up.&nbsp; Basically, the entire Australian army shipped/marched to Brisbane, along with every AP/AK in the region.&nbsp; I was originally thinking Darwin, but didn't want the extra logistigal baggage for dealing with that location.&nbsp; I've been shuttling Oz troops to Rabaul.&nbsp; Maybe when I get enough PP, the New Zealanders can play too.&nbsp; I still don't know how much I need.&nbsp; I have zero real intel on Truk.&nbsp; From the beating my DDs took, there are coast defense units there.&nbsp; Once I have gas, the Commonwealth BCs will be visiting to soften things up.
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[tex]

That is funny you were playing musical chairs with the Japs on Luzon. Hopefully they will go in the other direction now. But very good itel for us on AI behavior, thanks!

I wonder too why they take Wake but not Guam. It would certainly be easier to supply than Wake, and would seem to be a no-brainer if you take Wake.

[Mundy]

Yeah, this probably wouldn't happen in AE if the workings for ZOCs were changed.
Guam did get visited early by BBs and pounded a bit.&nbsp; This happened about the time that the Wake landings happened.
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Nagato and another big unknown BB have been hanging around Luzon, near Manila.&nbsp; They caught my bombardment force of old Dutch ships and my Monitor.&nbsp; No real damage before they pulled apart.&nbsp; The Japanese admiral&nbsp;was probably one of the more timid ones.&nbsp; Most of my good BBs have around 5-6&nbsp;sys pts, which I'm trying to heal.&nbsp; I challenged the Jap BBs on equal terms (3 v 3) earlier and lost Mississippi as a result, so I want to use 6 or so next time with a Khorne-worshiping admiral in charge. [:D]&nbsp;(sorry... Warhammer 40k humor)
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My long term goal is to get Midway built up, but for the most part, I've been able to send ships directly from the West Coast to Hong Kong -- especially if an AO tags along.&nbsp; Minelayers have been shuttling there and back via Pearl and Rabaul.
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[Connfire]

Guam did get visited early by BBs and pounded a bit. This happened about the time that the Wake landings happened.

Same thing happened to me. Odd.

I wonder too why they take Wake but not Guam. It would certainly be easier to supply than Wake, and would seem to be a no-brainer if you take Wake.

I don't know, I can see this strategy for giving you a forward base to go after Midway and harass Hawaii, while isolating Guam. But since resupply convoys are getting through to Guam, this does not seem to be working for the Japanese AI too well. But if it were me playing Japan, yes, I'd have squashed Guam.

Nagato and another big unknown BB have been hanging around Luzon, near Manila.

Ah yes, my old friend Nagato. I must have had a different admiral in charge last time she lumbered into my life and slaughtered a poor ASW patrol.

I'm getting lots of wear and tear on my battleships, so I've been rebasing them at Shanghai. The extra shipyard are needed at this point.

Just wait to see how complicated your life gets a few months into BB refit time. Then again, maybe it won't for you, since you can go to Hong Kong and Shanghi. Because I'm playing only US vs. Japan, my nearest yard is Pearl. Though I should say, I don't think any yard on the map compares to those on the West Coast - Mare Island in particular. I'm getting some success repairing smaller vessels by building up Manila's port level and loading it with AS, AD, and ARs.

I challenged the Jap BBs on equal terms (3 v 3) earlier and lost Mississippi as a result

That's one thing I haven't had yet. Lots of CA, CL, DD action - even some where mine or Japan's BBs got into it, just not with each other. I've only had one BB vs. BB action (again, with Nagato and her sister Mutsu). That was interesting - 4 14" USN BBs with 2 CAs and some DD escorts stumble upon 2 16" IJN BBs with about 6 CAs and CLs and a few DDs in company - pretty good match. Some shots exchanged, a few hits scored, and they ran away from each other. I tried catching them, but they got away. We'll see what happens after I secure the Philippines - unless the AI goes on offensive somewhere else, I'll be pushing toward Japan, and the potential will be higher.

[Mundy]

Well, I've retaken Clark, and Bataan remains cleared.&nbsp; This almost didn't go well.&nbsp; I think fatigue is starting to play a part.&nbsp; The armored regiment and the unit of armored cars arrived at Clark first and were driven off immediately.&nbsp; Everyone else trickled in over the course of about 4 days.&nbsp; The Japanese must have issues of their own, since their 28,000 men couldn't push out the Indian division which showed up first.&nbsp; We traded arty for a few days before I made the move.&nbsp; The armor stayed in Manila, since fatigue and disruption were high.&nbsp; Time to rest everyone before clensing Luzon.
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I'll turn Clark into a citadel for now and in a few weeks, start working north.&nbsp; I have lots of engineers in-country now, so forts shouldn't be a real problem.&nbsp; I used lots of air support for this, so that probably helped.&nbsp; Some of those DH-4 units are in the 70 range for experience now.&nbsp; My Martin bombers can do well, too.&nbsp; They've hit 4/4 at times on ships.
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Looking back, I probably should have left the Euro forces out unless provoked and did it the hard way.&nbsp; That would change my entire strategy.&nbsp; Too much WWII thinking is going on in my head, where I'm trying to create a parallel strategy.&nbsp; I had player-defined upgrades turned off.&nbsp; Maybe that was wrong, too.&nbsp; Thinking about this game, a campaign using a War Plan Red/Orange justification might have been a good idea.&nbsp; The Anglo-Japanese alliance didn't officially end until 1923, though things were going downhill at the time.&nbsp; A combined UK-Japan force against the US would be interesting and fun.
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On my 3 BB vs 3 BB battle earlier:&nbsp; Mississippi was unlucky by suffering a magazine hit.&nbsp; The other two battlewagons are about 40-ish in system damage.&nbsp; I didn't land many hits myself.&nbsp; These opportunities are fleeting, and it was luck that this happened.&nbsp; The good Japanese BB/BCs sail in and out fairly quickly.&nbsp; If I had sent all my battleships, instead of this compromise quickie bombardment mission, it probably would have been different.&nbsp; My days of sending my monitor and the glorified slow armored cruisers down alone are probably at an end, though.
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Fuel has arrived at Rabaul, so my US pre-dreadnaughts hit Truk and did some damage.&nbsp; They took lots of return hits, but it seems to be small grade stuff as sys damage is < 10 on these old ships.&nbsp; I have a love of pre-WWI USN ships lately and have been visiting navsourse.org a lot.&nbsp; I've finally read Tanker's hints and tricks posts above and am wondering how many Aussie bodies will be floating in the surf in an invasion.&nbsp; I don't want to pull the good battleships from the Philippines area, as the Truk operation is definitely a sideshow.&nbsp; HMS Argus will probably have nil-influence on the result, too.&nbsp; Even at this timeframe, Truk has a nice harbor, so I figure the AI will react somehow.&nbsp; I've been moving some of the Oz CD units to Brisbane, so if/when Truk is taken, I'm going to be pouring concrete and emplacing guns aplenty.
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I'm not sure how I want to organize things for shipyard repair.&nbsp; I called the BBs back from Shanghai to Hong Kong.&nbsp; I don't want them getting hassled passing by Formosa, plus Hong Kong is closer to the Philippines.&nbsp; I have an armada of ships in Hong Kong right now.&nbsp; Lots of troops arriving, too.&nbsp; Some went to help at Manila/Clark/Bataan, but I've got plenty more now to use somewhere.&nbsp; China proper is cleared of any Japanese.&nbsp; The ones in Shanghai were culled early.&nbsp; Much of the Shanghai force went to Tsingtao, along with some troops from north of there and eliminated them, also.&nbsp; I have an AS at Hong Kong, Shanghai and Tsingtao, so I have subs operating throughout the China coast.&nbsp; I'm thinking of an over the border invasion of Korea using those troops.&nbsp; Maybe I can combine that with a seaborne invasion at&nbsp;Inchon or something.&nbsp; Formosa's an option, but even though I lack any real intel, that would probably be messy.
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[tex]

ORIGINAL: Mundy

  If I had sent all my battleships, instead of this compromise quickie bombardment mission, it probably would have been different. 

M-

Remember Grasshopper the words of the master [&o]Mahan - NEVER divide the fleet! [:-] [:D]

[Mundy]

[:D]

Yeah, that what one gets for trying to do something on the cheap.

I've had about half a dozen sub attacks on the Jap BBs. Everything misses or fails to detonate. The latest mob of subs that just arrived from the US really seem to be greenhorns.

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[Mundy]

Looking through old threads, I just realized that I was patched to 1.205 -- not 1.205u. I must have been sleeping.

Looks like I'll be restarting this. I was thinking hard about this anyway. I'll be using the US only ROE as well as give myself the upgrades option.

I'll have to decide what to do with USS Monadnock. Shanghai isn't an option this time around. I'm rather fond of the old tub.

The guys in Shanghai will have to sit and glare across the fence at the Japanese there...

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[Connfire]

HMS Repulse is on the way to Hong Kong. A 30 kt battlecruiser will come in handy.

Just out of curiosity, how is it you're getting Repulse? I'm at April 9, 1923 and she's 401 days away from appearing for me.

Looking back, I probably should have left the Euro forces out unless provoked and did it the hard way.

Funny, I keep looking at the grand BBs, BCs and CVs riding anchor at Singapore and find myself wishing I had a plausible reason for getting them into the mix. I may have to wait for the 1926 campaign. With the exception of one incident, the AI will not go after anyone outside of the USA in my game.

But then again I'm still not certain where this war is going to go once I'm done with the Philippines. I've completely secured Luzon, and kicked the IJA out of Davao. The enemy is holed up in the Mindanao countryside now, in the hex south of Cotabato, but stubbornly resisting. I'm already considering my next move - probably retaking Batan Island and seizing Sakashima, and fortify the heck out of them to isolate Formosa and protect the approaches to Luzon. We'll see what happens after that. Going after Formosa itself, or Truk and other southern islands, or island-hopping to Kyushu are all on the table.

[Mundy]

I think I have the reinforcement variability set on the high end.&nbsp; I figured that since this isn't purely "historical", more randomness in the ship arrivals will make for a different game each time.&nbsp; I was into October, 1922 when it appeared at Colombo.&nbsp; RN pre-dreadnaughts were trickling in, too.
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Anyway, I've done the restart.&nbsp; It's not going so well this time.&nbsp; The IJN was more aggressive this time with its escort service.&nbsp; One group of DDs got the snot beat out of it by a TF of CAs and DDs.
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I'm trying to fetch every far flung unit in the Philippines to Manila.&nbsp; I've evacuated Cebu and after moving everyone on Mindanao to its northern port, if gotten the base force loaded from there, too.&nbsp; PP are a problem.&nbsp; The IJA has hit Mindanao at most of its ports, so time is very short.&nbsp; I've broken up the Philippine infantry there and will most likely get only one of the three groups out.
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On turn 1, I sent 3 fast minelayers out from Pearl to Wake.&nbsp; I kept them at full speed the first two days.&nbsp; I beat the IJN invasion by about a day, and have&nbsp;roughly 200 mines in place there.&nbsp; So far, only one transport has hit one.&nbsp; Last game, I left them on full speed the entire way and they ran dry enroute.&nbsp; Two days seems optimal.&nbsp; The difference between cruise and full speed is considerable.
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Guam got its bombardment visit several days before Wake got hit.&nbsp; I had the fighters set to naval attack, but they're having trouble finding the ships sitting off the beach.
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I'm moving the combat engineers in Anchorage to Midway.&nbsp; It'll look like Ft Drum by the time I'm done with it.&nbsp; I'm going to stockpile as much fuel and supplies as possible.
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Going US only does have some benefits.&nbsp; I'm not wasting PPs on Commonwealth troops.&nbsp; In fact, I'm not even looking at bases and forces for everyone else, so my concentration is more focused right now.&nbsp; If the AI plays like last time, the Dutch will probably be the next victim after a few months.&nbsp; It won't add much to the mix besides headaches.
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[Connfire]

I'm trying to fetch every far flung unit in the Philippines to Manila. I've evacuated Cebu and after moving everyone on Mindanao to its northern port, if gotten the base force loaded from there, too. PP are a problem. The IJA has hit Mindanao at most of its ports, so time is very short. I've broken up the Philippine infantry there and will most likely get only one of the three groups out.

Its funny, when I first started the 1922 campaign, which is my first, I acted the same way in the beginning that I would have had it been WitP in December 1941 - get anything I may want to use later the heck out of the Philippines and use the remaining forces to make the Japanese pay as much as possible before they get destroyed. With that in mind I used my remaining ground and navy forces aggressively, even recklessly. I quickly realized that things were different in 1922, namely the lack of aircraft dominating the skies - sure I lost ground and ships, but its not like I had to worry about endless waves of aircraft blasting everything that dared to move. And, like World War I, a well dug-in defender seems to have a pretty good advantage. Once I realized that I was not going to get blitzkrieged out of the Philippines any time soon, I started sending every unit I could spare that way. I speculate that the reason why the AI hasn't so far gone after the British or Dutch in my campaign was because I may have screwed up the AI's schedule by going nuts in the Philippines, so it may now be reacting more to triggers, like my capturing or recapturing certain hexes, then anything else.

On turn 1, I sent 3 fast minelayers out from Pearl to Wake. I kept them at full speed the first two days. I beat the IJN invasion by about a day, and have roughly 200 mines in place there. So far, only one transport has hit one. Last game, I left them on full speed the entire way and they ran dry enroute. Two days seems optimal. The difference between cruise and full speed is considerable.

I never even tried rushing ships to mine Wake before the invasion. Good idea.

[Mundy]

ORIGINAL: Connfire
Its funny, when I first started the 1922 campaign, which is my first, I acted the same way in the beginning that I would have had it been WitP in December 1941 - get anything I may want to use later the heck out of the Philippines and use the remaining forces to make the Japanese pay as much as possible before they get destroyed. With that in mind I used my remaining ground and navy forces aggressively, even recklessly. I quickly realized that things were different in 1922, namely the lack of aircraft dominating the skies - sure I lost ground and ships, but its not like I had to worry about endless waves of aircraft blasting everything that dared to move. And, like World War I, a well dug-in defender seems to have a pretty good advantage. Once I realized that I was going to get blitzkrieged out of the Philippines any time soon, I started sending every unit I could spare that way. I speculate that the reason why the AI hasn't so far gone after the British or Dutch in my campaign was because I may have screwed up the AI's schedule by going nuts in the Philippines, so it may now be reacting more to triggers, like my capturing or recapturing certain hexes, then anything else.

Yeah, I've found that I have to get the whole concept of World War II out of my head. I've haven't gotten that far yet in the US-only war yet, but I'm thinking a massive last stand on a highly-fortified Clark hex will at least buy time. Using the "all for one and one for all" approach with the Allies, it isn't hard to beef it up with British and Indian troops. They don't have the PP issue.

Be sure not to keep the Pearl minlayers at full speed the whole trip. Their tanks will be dry. before reaching Wake.

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[tex]

That is a good idea mining Wake, thanks for the tip Mundy!&nbsp;

[Mundy]

Don't think it'll stop the IJN from taking Wake.&nbsp; It's more of a harassment thing.&nbsp; I think 3 or 4 transports took a hit -- results unknown.&nbsp; The Japanese are pretty good at getting minsweepers in action there.&nbsp; I've been running pre-dreadnaught bombardments to Wake.&nbsp; Hot on their heels are minelayers, so they usually drop their mines without interference.
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My new campaign is into September 1922 already.&nbsp; The Japanese didn't make their landings on the two NW bases on Luzon until 2 months into the game.&nbsp; Bombers from the States have been in-theater for a few weeks and are gaining experience.&nbsp; On of the Martins actually landed a 1000 lb bomb on one of the Big BCs. (Kongo, I think)&nbsp; It did get through the deck armor.
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The 2nd Marine Bgd is a day out from Wake.&nbsp; Pretty much my entire battlefleet is supporting it, though I'm wondering if it will be enough.&nbsp; I have Midway up to port size 3.&nbsp; An AD and AS are permenantly based there and it's my main sub base for the region.&nbsp; The fuel runs there are nonstop.&nbsp; One dreadnaught heavy TF will easily drain 5000 fuel points from there.&nbsp; I'm trying to keep at least 20,000 points of fuel there.
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The 1st Cav is almost to Manila.&nbsp; Clark is at fortification leven 9, so it will be a tough nut to crack.&nbsp; I'm trying to get arty there too.&nbsp; Any USN DDs arriving in Colombo are immediately routed to Manila.&nbsp; The IJN seems to be taking this more seriously, as the fast BCs are prowling around now and then.&nbsp; The big BBs haven't showed here.&nbsp; My Wake bombardments have indicated that Ise, Nagato and another BB have been in port there.
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