Naval battles are borked

[Bradley7735]

Seriously, Savo only happened once. Why does it continuously repeat itself in this game?

I'm playing the AI, and most of you know by now that the Japanese AI will send a 2 bb task force to Pearl every once in a while. I scout it at least two turns before it attacks because it waits a day at the perfect range to make a speed run in during the night. I have subs in it's path, and a tailor made surface force to meet it. NC and 10 old bb's with 4 CA's to round it out. Hand picked captains and TF commander. (I've had this scenario at least 6 times in the several starts I've done since release) I don't bother to put in DD's, because they're just free VP's to the Japanese. (This fight takes place in port, where SS's are not a factor.)

Every time it's two BB's vs 8-10 BB's. The Japanese start out with penetrating hits each round and the American BB's machine gun stuff. It's friggin frustrating. 10 BB's and only two of them react in a given round while Hiei puts 6 penetrating hits ino Arizona, two into Oklahoma and one into NC in ONE round. Average end result of these 6 or so encounters is slight damage to two Japanese BB's (generally finished via carrier attacks over the following week), 1-2 sunk supporting Japanese ships, and generally one sunk American BB and 2-3 moderately damaged BB's.

WTF? It happens every time. Why does this game represent allied naval forces to be complete retards in so many encounters? I'm sure it's mostly due to low ship experience on the allied side, despite an awesome crew rotation program used by the Americans. I've got tons of ships who've had many small encounters and their exp is still in the 50-70 range, irl they'd be in the 90's)

[oldman45]

Since the patch, I have had a couple strange `attle results, it seems the tweekq to stop thg slcughter of the jap navy effected things a little too much. The mighty boise isn't so mighty any more. I had her with a dutch CL and 4 DD's run into the Soho, a CV, CA and 6 DD's. 12k range anf it was not good fop thg allies. Ran it 4 times to see)if it was a "die roll" thing but the reqults were similiar.

I had encounters with lightly escorted cmnvo{s and they were wiped like before, (which is exactly whct I expect) and the AI has cleaned my clock when I was not paying attention and they got into my ports.

Naval battles still seem a little weak, I have seen TF's trade shots get a couple of hits and break off. I don't mind it except the slower ships are getting away. I have had overwhelming forces get out gunned or my favorite is when I have run into a jap carrier TF and lose the fight. I figure there are other variables at play here and I guess the best way to describe it is "it just doesn't feel right".

[El Savior]

PH raids are frustrating. No matter what your surface TF ar Pearl are always surprised. In my campaign japs made these raids at least once a month and sunk dozens of ships (+ CV under repair). Only good way to counter these raids is to place carrier group on their path.

There are several BIG problems with these raids:

• Coastal guns are too ineffective
• AI script is bugged (they should not even think raiding fortresses like PH/Singapore/Bataan

Hopefully PH raids will be fixed in next patch.

[John Lansford]

Any Japanese TF trying to raid Pearl Harbor would have been chopped to pieces by the extremely heavy coastal defenses in the area.  Did any of these attacking ships ever hit a mine or engage the CD forces prior to the surface battle?  I've seen it mentioned in another post that CD forces appear to be messed up, but Pearl Harbor's defenders not functioning appears to be a serious issue.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Any Japanese TF trying to raid Pearl Harbor would have been chopped to pieces by the extremely heavy coastal defenses in the area.  Did any of these attacking ships ever hit a mine or engage the CD forces prior to the surface battle?  I've seen it mentioned in another post that CD forces appear to be messed up, but Pearl Harbor's defenders not functioning appears to be a serious issue.

OPERATIONAL RESEARCH

A gun in a CD emplacement was worth four on board ship.

HISTORY

The defences of Oahu in December 1941 were rated the strongest fortress in the world.

[xj900uk]

The defences of Oahu in December 1941 were rated the strongest fortress in the world.

And yet on Dec 7th 1941 the IJN managed to walk right in without a shot being fired & start smashing the place up...
Doesn't matter how strong the defences are and how good the guns are if everyone is off in the town on an extended 48-hour pass or else fast asleep...
Actually, Nagumo really expected to have to fight his way into Pearl and couldn't believe his luck to have completely caught the US totally by surprise. He also expected to loose at least half his carriers in the resultant air-sea battle which could explain his desire to scuttle off as soon as he could before the US woke up and retaliated

[oldman45]

Your comparing an air attack to surface ships attacking the port. I am not sure thats a fair comparison.

[spence]

Aside from the completely non-sequitur comparision of a surprise air attack to a surface ship duel with coastal batteries which are under no illusion as to whether a state of war exists or not; the actual combat record of the IJN battlewagons provides virtually nothing to suggest their overwhelming superiority over the American BBs.

The combat record doesn't provide a lot of examples because Japan considered the continued existence of their BBs much more important than most IJN Players apparently do.

IJN BB accomplishments:

1) Two Kongo class pulled off an unopposed bombardment of Henderson Field in Oct 1942.

IJN BB not so great.

1) Two more Kongo class aborted a planned bombardment of Henderson Field in Nov '42 after getting into a "knife-fight" in restricted waters with a USN TF (with no BBs).

IJN BB really not good:

1) Kirishima, trying once more to bombard Henderson Field in Nov '42, takes on two new USN BBs and gets shot to pieces 10 miles from a US airbase (scuttled). Kirishima apparently scored a few hits on USS South Dakota but most of South Dakota's problems were self-generated.
2) Two old IJN BBs take on the US 7th Fleet in Oct '44. Both are blown out of the water with negligible loss to USN.
3) 4 BBs supported by a bunch of cruisers and destroyers (including the mighty Yamato in her only performance in a starring role) take on 3 DDs, 4 DEs, and some CVEs in a running gunfight of several hours duration off Samar in Oct '44. The BBs run away from a torpedo attack and practically take themselvses out of the battle for an hour. They manage a few hits on various USN ships in the end sinking two DDs, a DE and a CVE. Although the BBs are not seriously damaged themselves the damage to supporting ships is such that the IJN commander first breaks off the action and then retreats altogether.

("DAMN, we were sucking them in to 40mm range"; said the old Chief. Perhaps the devs took him a bit too literally when they programmed USN BB participation in surface combat.)

Though IJN BBs practiced shooting at night and in bad weather before the war they had no more practical experience in naval surface combat than the USN. Their last shots in anger at an enemy man of war were at Tsushima in 1905 (shortly before the invention of the dreadnaught battleship, i.e. their very class of warship).

[bklooste]

Aside from the completely non-sequitur comparision of a surprise air attack to a surface ship duel with coastal batteries which are under no illusion as to whether a state of war exists or not; the actual combat record of the IJN battlewagons provides virtually nothing to suggest their overwhelming superiority over the American BBs.

We have 20/20 hind sight , by the time 44 gets around your ships are Dauntless fodder during the day and radar fodder at night. Best to expend them in 41 when there is some equality.

To get back on the thread why are the Pearl Harbour ships getting suprised are they docked ? If so the results are perfectly reasonable. If they are in a Surface task force then there is an issue

[Central Blue]

I have had expected results with RADM Willis running the task forces. He has even crossed their T.

By expected results, I mean what you would expect from BB's that typically have extremely poor night experience. I haven't lost any BB's, maybe I am rolling better dice.

With better air search I am liable to get a few bomb hits on them when they first show up, and I meet them just one square away from Pearl so that any of their vessels slowed by damage will be subject to bombing on the way home.

I still see the TF's, but not always with BB's.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: spence
Though IJN BBs practiced shooting at night and in bad weather before the war they had no more practical experience in naval surface combat than the USN.

No one had any practical experience. Jutland was the first and last of the fleet on fleet dreadnought battles, and has few lessons to apply to smaller surface actions.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

The defences of Oahu in December 1941 were rated the strongest fortress in the world.

And yet on Dec 7th 1941 the IJN managed to walk right in without a shot being fired & start smashing the place up...

No.., they managed to fly over."., and quite a number of shots were fired once the AAA was manned. Had they tried to "walk(sail?)in", Ironbottom Sound would have been off Hawaii.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Any Japanese TF trying to raid Pearl Harbor would have been chopped to pieces by the extremely heavy coastal defenses in the area. Did any of these attacking ships ever hit a mine or engage the CD forces prior to the surface battle? I've seen it mentioned in another post that CD forces appear to be messed up, but Pearl Harbor's defenders not functioning appears to be a serious issue.

OPERATIONAL RESEARCH

A gun in a CD emplacement was worth four on board ship. Probably much more than that as part of an integrated Coast Defense System. It's not so much the emplacements as the integrated spotting and fire-control system. As the Germans discovered in Normandy, and the Japanese over much of the Pacific, just sticking an artillery piece on the coast does not make it Coast Defense Artillery.

HISTORY

The defences of Oahu in December 1941 were rated among the strongest in the world.

[spence]

To get back on the thread why are the Pearl Harbour ships getting suprised are they docked ? If so the results are perfectly reasonable. If they are in a Surface task force then there is an issue

The point is that before the IJN BBs even get their ranging shots off for their unobserved indirect fire into Pearl Harbor the CD guns would blow them out of the water.

[John Lansford]

The IJN BB's did not practice night battles; it was considered too complicated and they used too much fuel.  Besides, the night fighting tactics were designed to whittle down the USN fleet and allow the weaker IJN battleline to defeat them in a daylight "Tsushima like" battle.  

[PaxMondo]

Is part of this that the code considers even a TF in a port as anchored?  If so, getting up to steam was a long slow process for a BB.  THat might explain the results.  In PH, the TF is lousy.  Meet them once hex out and you get more expected results...

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Is part of this that the code considers even a TF in a port as anchored?

Problem here is that any TF trying to bombard PH would have to "run the gauntlet" of CD fire long before it could ever hope to fire on a TF inside the harbor. Some of those CD batteries could fire accurately at 29 miles! That's far beyond what any bombarding TF could hope to achieve...., and why such nonsense was never attempted in real life.

[P.Hausser]

It's a simple way to awoild all this,  just play a Human.

For a game that takes this long to play, I think you would be better off, and enjoying it more if you played a human anyway...

Also, early war the allies are suposse to be inferrior..

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser

It's a simple way to awoild all this, just play a Human.

Shouldn't matter who or what you are playing..., attacking a large integrated coastal defense system should be suicidal. Whether it's Oahu, Tokyo Bay, or Vladivostok, the result should be a sound beating for the TF trying it. That's what needs to be fixed.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser

It's a simple way to awoild all this,  just play a Human.

Humans make stupid (AI-like) mistakes as well.

Anyway, maybe this is just a case of the AI cheating again which is WAD.