What is the feel?

[Wade1000]

Is the feel of Armada 2526 that which many prefer, including me, of building a civilization while dealing with power struggles, cold wars, and total wars; or is it more of building up a powerbase to eventually and unalterably engage in total galactic warfare?

On a related note, here are a couple more questions.

What are the victory conditions? Are they the standard and wise conditions of -destroy all, -diplomatic, -science (some times also -domination, and -cultural)?

Are there massive planetary and orbital civil projects to match the military in their greatest warships? If so, I hope that these "wonders" are not unique, in that each empire could build one or more and not be canceled out just because it was built elsewhere.
(Maybe these civil projects could be halos/orbitals, ringworlds, and sphereworlds. They would become the new population, industrial, and research centers of a civilization. Planets would become less important vacation spots and nature preserves. ...yes... I love these science fiction elements...I keep mentioning them.)

How is the espionage system?

Thanks.

[SeanD]

What are the victory conditions? Are they the standard and wise conditions of -destroy all, -diplomatic, -science (some times also -domination, and -cultural)?

The way the game determines who wins is by checking who has the most victory points at the end of the scenario (the end meaning you've reached the predefined turn count). Each race is unique in that it has specific conditions that give them huge bonuses to victory points. Theoretically you could still win if you ignore your race's victory point bonuses but it's damn near impossible. An example would be Glorious Victories and Population Happiness as your race's bonuses. That means that every Glorious Victory you claim in battle (a function of how badly you beat your enemy in battle) and the happiness level across all the population in your colonies will give you far more points than through the regular calculation.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Consider having some racial animosities which create "Russian" victory conditions, i.e., it matters less what happens to your empire as long as your hated enemies get blasted first. That would make for some interesting games.

[Wade1000]

ORIGINAL: SeanD

What are the victory conditions? Are they the standard and wise conditions of -destroy all, -diplomatic, -science (some times also -domination, and -cultural)?

The way the game determines who wins is by checking who has the most victory points at the end of the scenario (the end meaning you've reached the predefined turn count). Each race is unique in that it has specific conditions that give them huge bonuses to victory points. Theoretically you could still win if you ignore your race's victory point bonuses but it's damn near impossible. An example would be Glorious Victories and Population Happiness as your race's bonuses. That means that every Glorious Victory you claim in battle (a function of how badly you beat your enemy in battle) and the happiness level across all the population in your colonies will give you far more points than through the regular calculation.

The way the game determines who wins is by checking who has the most victory points at the end of the scenario (the end meaning you've reached the predefined turn count).

But...isn't there a version of play that is custom or "sandbox" in which there is an unlimited number of turns? If so, what are the victory conditions for that? From all I've ever heard and read, many, maybe most, space strategy players prefer unlimited turn games.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Wade, this is a turn-based 4x game, i.e., you have an unlimited period of time to enter turns unless it is multiplayer, in which case everyone has to agree on having a limited period of time to enter a turn before it can be set to a limited period. In terms of the number of turns, it is likewise easy to set the game to 999 turns. Few turn-based 4x games last that long.

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

The way the game determines who wins is by checking who has the most victory points at the end of the scenario (the end meaning you've reached the predefined turn count).

But...isn't there a version of play that is custom or "sandbox" in which there is an unlimited number of turns? If so, what are the victory conditions for that? From all I've ever heard and read, many, maybe most, space strategy players prefer unlimited turn games.

[Wade1000]

Tom, thanks. I know, and I am familiar with, what genre of game it is. I think there was a slight misunderstanding. I did not ask any thing about the length of time to "enter" or complete a turn; but thanks. Yes, you are right, though, about each turn time(to complete a turn) in 4X single player games being unlimited; while multiplayer games have length of each turn time being set at game set up.

My question still stands though. Most 4x games I've seen had either an option for unlimited NUMBER of turns in the game OR was that way built in, default.

Is there a version of play that is custom or "sandbox" in which there is an unlimited number of turns? If so, what are the victory conditions for that? From all I've ever heard and read, many, maybe most, space strategy players prefer unlimited NUMBER of turns in games.

Thanks.

[martok]

I too would like clarification on Wade's question: Does the game come with a sandbox mode with unlimited turns? Or is the player limited to specific scenarios, and/or a limited number of turns?

[Ntronium]

You can set up a custom game however you want. Choose which players, and what races, use a preset map, or a randomly generated map of whatever size you choose, and set the turn limit so high you have no chance of reaching it unless you research immortality tech.

The scenarios are described in XML files so they're easy to set up too. They'll give you control of starting forces and positions, and even let you customize the faction abilities, and the strategies the A.I. players will adopt.

[Wade1000]

So then, is the only way to win an epic, long game to conquer all the other empires or reach the end of the super long turn limit and have the highest points? It sounds like there is not any victories of diplomatic, science, domination, or culture.

[NefariousKoel]

I think he's just wondering if there is an Automatic "Iwin" victory condition.

Such as achieving all techs first or having a super high VP ratio compared to your opponents.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Wade, those are all ways to get points, depending on what victory conditions have been selected for a given empire at the beginning of each game. There has to be a point system because each empire's victory conditions, in a given game, can vary from each other empire's.

If one empire in a given game has to dominate science to win, another has to have a majority of the galaxy's population, and another to dominate its culture, it is possible for each of these three empires to achieve its minimum victory condition, and telling which one is the overall winner can only be determined by a point system which weighs degrees of victory.

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

So then, is the only way to win an epic, long game to conquer all the other empires or reach the end of the super long turn limit and have the highest points? It sounds like there is not any victories of diplomatic, science, domination, or culture.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Sean, I have several "feel" questions which the beta-testers might be able to answer if you'll let them.  My understanding is that Armada 2526 has a limit of one colony per star system, though what type of colony it is can vary wildly (planetary, space-based habitat of some sort, etc.).
 
First, what is the general range of numbers of colonies in player empires at any given point in the game, assuming that the largest galaxy size is selected?  MOO3's is a bit under one colony per game turn for the largest galaxies, i.e., player empires tend to have 50-100 colonies by Turn 100, 150-180 by Turn 200, etc.  MOO3 does, however, have multiple planets in most star systems, with an average of about 2.5, so this means 20-40 player star systems by Turn 100, 60-70 by Turn 200, etc.
 
This is very much a "feel" question in terms of how much empire-management work is required.
 
Second, does tactical combat include any kind of fleet "organization" as in MOO3 and Space Empires?  Here I am talking about MOO3 task forces and Space Empires "fleets".  The alternative is that all ships in the same "hex" go at it individually.
 
Third, is there any limit on the maximum number of ships which can engage in any one space combat?  If so, what is it?  Is this related to the number of "formation" sub-units, such as MOO3 task forces?  For those unfamiliar with Master of Orion 3, it allows a maximum of ten "task forces" in combat at any one time (which is moddable - many players prefer a limit of 12), and a maximum of ten ships per task force (also moddable), for a total of 180 ships maximum being allowed in a given space combat, at least with the MOO3 defaults.
 
Finally, how are newly built ships moved from the star systems which built them to where they are wanted?  Is there a parade of newly built ships moving from big industrial sytems to an empire's boundaries (as in Space Empires), or are they magically transported from abstract "reserves" to "mobilization centers" aka fleet bases a la MOO3?

[martok]

ORIGINAL: Tom_Holsinger

Third, is there any limit on the maximum number of ships which can engage in any one space combat?  If so, what is it?  Is this related to the number of "formation" sub-units, such as MOO3 task forces? 

Somewhat related to Tom's question here: Will we be able to bring in reinforcements/reserves as ships/formations withdraw and/or are destroyed?

In other words: If (for example) the maximum number of ships is 100 vessels on each side, can we bring 200 ships to a battle, with the "extra" 100 entering the battle as other units pull out and/or are killed?

[Erik Rutins]

IMHO Armada 2526 is less micromanagement-oriented than some other similar games. I'd put it more along the lines of a Sword of the Stars in terms of management burden, which for me is "just right". How many colonies you are eventually managing depends largely on the galaxy size, but I would say you're not usually dealing with more than 50 colonies and I've had lots of fun in games where I never had more than 20.

There is no maximum ships limit in space combat (that I've found). Your ships all start on the battle map. You can organize them into groups and assign each group a formation and density, a target for combat and movement.

You can set rally points for production to tell your newly produced ships where to go and they fly across space at their best speed to get there once they're built.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Thanks, Erik.  20-50 colonies in decent-size player empires gives us a good feel for the amount of colony management we'll have.  I have some followup questions which should give us a better feel for the game's scope.

1)  Roughly how many star systems are there in the largest galaxy setting?  I think it's about 300 in MOO3.

2)  What is the maximum number of AI empires which the startup menu allows in the game?  It's 16 in MOO3.

3)  Can you give us any approximate numbers of ships are in a large battle, assuming there are two sides?  You said there is no fixed limit, so I'd like a rough idea of how many ships, as a range, we might expect to see in a major battle.

4)  About how many ships do individual empires have total in the late game?  In MOO3 the bigger end-game empires tend to have several thousand ships.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Tom_Holsinger
1)  Roughly how many star systems are there in the largest galaxy setting?  I think it's about 300 in MOO3.

You don't set star systems so much as map size. These range from the preset "Tiny 40x40 to Humungous 500x500" but you can also put in your own height and width and I think the upper limit on that is your system performance and your patience. Honestly though, I find the "Large 120x120" is plenty for me and I've had a blast on smaller maps. You can then adjust star density from "Very Sparse" up to "Very Dense" and adjust the spread from "Uniform" to "Very Dense Center"

2)  What is the maximum number of AI empires which the startup menu allows in the game?  It's 16 in MOO3.

I don't believe there is an upper limit, I just went up to 90 players, however I doubt there is a system that will be able to handle that in a reasonable amount of time. By default, it's 12 players.

3)  Can you give us any approximate numbers of ships are in a large battle, assuming there are two sides?  You said there is no fixed limit, so I'd like a rough idea of how many ships, as a range, we might expect to see in a major battle.

Not sure what the average number would really be, battles are quite situational depending on the strategic positions. I think the largest I've fought had close to a hundred ships on each side.

4)  About how many ships do individual empires have total in the late game?  In MOO3 the bigger end-game empires tend to have several thousand ships.

I have honestly not stopped to count! Certainly depends on map size and density as well.

Regards,

- Erik

[Terminus]

Hey Erik, a quick question: was Armada 2526 the game you sought beta testers for a while back under the heading "beta testers wanted for intergalactic work"? I always wondered what was behind that cryptic headline...[:D]

[Erik Rutins]

Nope, there is another... [;)]

[Tom_Holsinger]

Thanks, Erik, that was very helpful in getting a feel for the game's scale.  The objective is playable as opposed to epic, and your responses show everything fitting into playable.
 
I have major, major reservations about the decision to forgo player-designed ships because that kills THE major means of getting players to identify with their empires.  Role-playing and suspension of disbelief are more important in space 4x games than most assume.  Birth of the Federation didn't need player-designed ships because players already identified with the Star Trek universe, and wanted to use the Star Trek ships they were familiar with.  Armada 2526 does not have such a prepared market.
 
There are alternative role-playing features which could somewhat make up for the absence of player-designed ships, chiefly in terms of AI diplomacy, which the default setting of 12 AI empires makes possible, and I'll get into those in a new thread tomorrow.

[Iceman]

Different factions have different ship designs BTW, that reflect their philosophy towards combat.