B5N2 Kate production?

[SqzMyLemon]

I've read it somewhere about the B5N2 Kate factory at Hiroshima/Kure not producing any new aircraft at game start, and that if you do nothing it will continue to produce none. How do you get the production of this aircraft up and running again? I didn't recall seeing a solution on this when i first read about it. Any help would be appreciated.

Smeulders, if you are reading this, I have no intention of replacing all the Kate's Im about to lose [;)] just for my own knowledge (looks innocently away)

[LoBaron]

Just go into the the AC production window in the Hiro/Kure hex and increase increase production.

[SqzMyLemon]

LoBaron,

Even if the cursor over the increase production option indicates 0's for the upgrade? What I mean is, it says 0 production increase with cost being HI 0 Supplies 0? I have no idea of what the cost is to increase production.

[Q-Ball]

Find the EXPAND factory button. Actually it's just a word EXPAND, but that will do the trick. Keep pressing it until you get the size you want. It requires supplies to be in the hex, but you should have plenty at Hiroshima. The factory will still need to repair that expansion before you get any, but they should be rolling off the line in a month or so

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

LoBaron,

Even if the cursor over the increase production option indicates 0's for the upgrade? What I mean is, it says 0 production increase with cost being HI 0 Supplies 0? I have no idea of what the cost is to increase production.

The first click IIIRC will only add 1 or 2 aircraft to the factory so the cost is minimal...each additional click doubles the production.

[SqzMyLemon]

Thanks everyone for the help. I know a pretty basic question, but I'd just like to avoid any costly errors my first time playing Japan. I think my current PBEM Allied opponent will be a tough one.

One less thing to do now.

Thanks again.

[Chickenboy]

A reminder to GO EASY on the factory expansion as the IJ. It's easy to get carried away with expanding factories, bases, shipyards and the like, but you will run into a nasty economic crunch in just a few months if you do this too suddenly.

For aircraft that you expand production, you must also make some arrangements vis a vis the corresponding engine, lest you have engineless frames just sitting around. So, I believe you'll need to marginally bump up your Nakajima Ha-35 engine production to accomodate any increase in the B5N2 production.

Sorry if this sounds basic, but it's a common IJ rookie move to overexpand as Japan and then have everything come crashing down in short order.

[khyberbill]

Many players switch to Mabels. It uses a less important engine and is as good as the Kate.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

Many players switch to Mabels. It uses a less important engine and is as good as the Kate.

The Data says this is a good move; it's a better plane. I just couldn't bring myself to do that; doesn't feel right, the Kate was the better plane IRL.

[thegreatwent]

The Mabel doesn't upgrade as far as I know. I tried, but it was a mistake.

[pad152]

Remember, build Mabels or Kates, not both, one of the keys to Japanese air production is to limit aircraft types! Also use tracker of AE to see the true cost of aircraft production. With PDU (player defined upgrade) on, Mabels will upgrade just fine.
 
 

[SqzMyLemon]

Chickenboy: I hear you there, that's the last thing I want to do, just taking baby steps, I have no idea of the long term consequences of my actions [&:]

Q-Ball: I'm partial to the Kates too, even though the last thing you want to do in a simulation is go with your heart maybe.

pad152: Yes, I was planning on just Kate production, I'm looking at streamlining plane types and maximizing engine life and current production runs.

[PaxMondo]

I don't see the Mabel as better, the B5N2 Kate is pretty clearly the better plane both in game and IRL.  What am I missing?

[xj900uk]

The Kate was a good plane, used well by the IJN, but was kept around far too long.  The Jill is far, far better, on a level par with the Avenger & faster too even carrying a fish (could go over 400 mph fully loaded in a shallow dive on target from 5-6000',  unless the Hellcat could intercept prior to the start of this shallow attack dive there was no way it could be caught).  So produce the Kate (or Mable) by all means but find some way of getting the Jill developed & into service earlier

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

The Kate was a good plane, used well by the IJN, but was kept around far too long.  The Jill is far, far better, on a level par with the Avenger & faster too even carrying a fish (could go over 400 mph fully loaded in a shallow dive on target from 5-6000',  unless the Hellcat could intercept prior to the start of this shallow attack dive there was no way it could be caught).  So produce the Kate (or Mable) by all means but find some way of getting the Jill developed & into service earlier

If memory suits, torpedo attacks by all AFs were to be conducted at comparatively low speeds. My recollection is something under 150mph for USN torpedo bombers with a drop in the 200 foot range. Anything faster or higher would have the unfortunate effect of destroying the torpedo due to impact with the water at insanely high speeds.

I can't imagine that, even if they were capable of 400mph at emergency war power, that Jills would have ever operated in such a manner. In that sense, there's just a lot of superfluous engine power and potential speed in the attack phase that is meaningless IRL.

[xj900uk]

The first Jills were used at the Marianas Turkey shoot in June '44, and yes they did mount torpedo attacks at top speed c.400 mph mark and the Hellcats were unable to catch them.  In fact the USN fliers commented afterwards that 'Jill was a dangerous lady' and, if the IJN had had any decent pilots left at this point,  could have been a formidable opponent.
For what it's worth, the inexperienced Jap pilots had clearly been instructed (or decided in advance) to launch attacks in such a manner, in the hope that they would get out alive (most didn't).  It is also worth noting that according to US spotters/observers, yes they were travelling so fast that not a single fish ran true when they were dropped. 
In fact about 40% of the attacking IJN planes actually managed to get through the cover of Hellcats to attack the US fleet, even though most of them were carved up afterwards.  They scored one direct hit with a 250kg bomb (dropped by an out-of-date Val) on a Battleship,w hich hit a forward turret but failed to penetrate although caused severe casualties to the for'ad AA gun crews) and three near misses,  two of which were on CV's,  all with bombs.  Not a single fish hit, infact because the Jap pilots came in so fast it is doubtful if any fish even ran true.
Worth considering though that if the IJN had had any pilots left of the '42 calibre the Marianas Turkey shoot could have had a slightly different outcome...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

The first Jills were used at the Marianas Turkey shoot in June '44, and yes they did mount torpedo attacks at top speed c.400 mph mark and the Hellcats were unable to catch them. 

400mph attacks (versus travel?) in the 5000-6000 foot glide attack to the point of torpedo release? This seems unlikely-may I please ask you for a source on this?

In fact the USN fliers commented afterwards that 'Jill was a dangerous lady' and, if the IJN had had any decent pilots left at this point,  could have been a formidable opponent.

Well, anyone that can successfully employ a torpedo bomber and attack a moving ship at 400mph is by definition a formidable opponent.

For what it's worth, the inexperienced Jap pilots had clearly been instructed (or decided in advance) to launch attacks in such a manner, in the hope that they would get out alive (most didn't).  It is also worth noting that according to US spotters/observers, yes they were travelling so fast that not a single fish ran true when they were dropped. 

Ah, I guess that I assumed that IJN attack strategies would take into account the liklihood of the torpedo guidance being damaged or deflected by insane attack speeds. Looks like the IJN really dropped the ball on planning this attack by forgetting about the realities of physics in formulating their doctrine.

Not a single fish hit, infact because the Jap pilots came in so fast it is doubtful if any fish even ran true.

So the torpedoes could have been breaking up upon contact with the water from near supersonic speeds? Makes sense. I wonder why the IJN doctrine was so critically flawed on this idea that they even considered attempting this?

Worth considering though that if the IJN had had any pilots left of the '42 calibre the Marianas Turkey shoot could have had a slightly different outcome...

I doubt that having well trained pilots would ever compensate for inherently flawed attack doctrine that failed to account for the laws of physics and limitations of the weapon systems being employed. Torpedoes would continue to break up or be deflected or damaged after contact with the water at those speeds, pilot training notwithstanding.

[xj900uk]

I will dig out the source on the Jill tonight, sure I have got it in one of my books including an evaluation.
 
Re the Marianas Turkey shoot there are several very good commentaries & discussions already on the net & in print.  Always wondered why the Jap fish never ran true when dropped - amazingly I think you've hit on the right answer.  However Japanese doctrine and trianing was perilously low in this battle

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


I can't imagine that, even if they were capable of 400mph at emergency war power, that Jills would have ever operated in such a manner. In that sense, there's just a lot of superfluous engine power and potential speed in the attack phase that is meaningless IRL.

Japanese type 91 torpedo was much better than US airborne torpedo. Later type 91 models were strengthened so that max drop speed was 350 kts (about 400 mph).

http://www.combinedfleet.com/torps.htm

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


I can't imagine that, even if they were capable of 400mph at emergency war power, that Jills would have ever operated in such a manner. In that sense, there's just a lot of superfluous engine power and potential speed in the attack phase that is meaningless IRL.

Japanese type 91 torpedo was much better than US airborne torpedo. Later type 91 models were strengthened so that max drop speed was 350 kts (about 400 mph).

http://www.combinedfleet.com/torps.htm

Understood and agreed about the inferiority of USN air-dropped torpedoes, particularly in early-mid war.

When was this 'later' type 91 in widespread distribution and service? Was it in widespread service prior to the Battle of the Phillipine Sea? If not, what were its predecessor's engagement envelope parameters?

ETA: looked it up on the site. Most interesting. I wonder if these maximum speeds for drop were realistically determined on combat drops. As PP have indicated, a very large number of torpedoes failed to track or otherwise engage targets at their 'rated' attack speed. This suggests that these torpedoes, when combined with the delivery system (Jills) at high speeds were not WAD. Why?

Could it be that the IJN Bureau of Ordinance equivalent may have been exaggerating their parameters for engagement? Could metallurgic or other flaws have worked their way into the production system to offset theoretical structural gains with the later modifications?

I wonder if the IJN Bureau of Ordinance asked itself the same soul-searching questions that the USN did (albeit VERY late)? Would such questioning of authority and 'the system' been tolerated within the heirarchy of the mid-late war IJN?